Michigan St. vs. Duke.

[rwest]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Contact can be severe and not be a foul. The amount of contact on a player has nothing to do with calling fouls. That is not me talking. That is the rulebook talking.

In my game on Tuesday a small guard attempted to drive the lane and made a jump stop and went head on with the Center, who was 6'3" and about 230 pounds. The guard bounced completely off the center and lost the ball and fell to the floor. There was a lot of contact, but what foul could I call in this case? Well actually nothing. The defender stood completely still. He did not move when contact took place. Could the guard have gotten hurt? Of course he could have, but you cannot just call a foul on the defender when they are playing within the rules.

Peace

Rut,

I agree with you on the above scenario. You can't call a foul on someone just because they are bigger. A smaller player who runs into a larger player is going to fall to the ground. The crowd may want a foul, but they aren't wearing the stripes. We don't call fouls based on their reaction.

However, there is a precedence for using the violent nature of contact to make a determination. If a player commits a violent foul while playing the ball, we can call an intentional foul even though they clearly were playing the ball. I know this is different, but I believe a violent block from behind, even though it got all ball or the hand on the ball, violates the spirit of the rule if not the letter. Its a judgement call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rwest

So, in other words JR, you are suggesting that we can officiate outside the black letter of the law if we believe the intent of the rule has been violated. As you said, that's up to the referee's judgement. I don't believe it is a stretch to say that a violent block from behind violates the intent of the rule, even if it does not violate the strict letter of the law.

Nope, I'm suggesting that you read R10-6-1. That tells you what the FED's take on contact is. The black letter of the law says that a defender contacting an opponent's hand while it is on the ball may or may not be a foul. Casebook play 4-19-3SitB gives you good direction too on a legal block followed by contact.

I am saying that a violent block on the ball that is not accompanied by physical contact of any kind is NOT a foul, and it NEVER was the purpose and intent of any rule to allow a personal foul to ever be called without any actual physical contact being present. Iow, your "stretch" has no basis under any existing rule or practise that I know of.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rwest
[/B]

I know this is different, but I believe a violent block from behind, even though it got all ball or the hand on the ball, violates the spirit of the rule if not the letter. Its a judgement call.

[/B][/QUOTE]Lah me.

The "spirit of the rules" are laid out in the "Basketball Rules Fundamentals" on p74 of the rule book. Please see Fundamental #10 - "Personal fouls ALWAYS INVOLVE ILLEGAL CONTACT and occur during a live ball, except a common foul by or on an airborne shooter". Please note that the exception for the airborne shooter is because contact at that time may be after the ball became dead, not because illegal contact wasn't involved.

Please note again, that's a Basketball Rules Fundamental!

[rockyroad]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Lah me.

The "spirit of the rules" are laid out in the "Basketball Rules Fundamentals" on p74 of the rule book. Please see Fundamental #10 - "Personal fouls ALWAYS INVOLVE ILLEGAL CONTACT and occur during a live ball, except a common foul by or on an airborne shooter". Please note that the exception for the airborne shooter is because contact at that time may be after the ball became dead, not because illegal contact wasn't involved.

Please note again, that's a Basketball Rules Fundamental!

Preach it, JR...preach it!!

[BBall_Junkie]

Very well said JR and what I have been advocating for several posts here. I stated the fundamental but without my rulebook I couldn't give the exact number of the fundamental. Thanks.

We can't just start calling fouls, because we think it should be called a foul due to how the play appeared.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rockyroad
[/B]

Preach it, JR...preach it!! [/B][/QUOTE]Well, Rock, I just had this picture kinda flash through my head(nothing to stop it):

I get to listen to all the complaints when they initially come in. I can just see me sitting there at home one night, all cosy and comfy, nice and quiet because the wife is out, fire burning, feet up, dogs dozing beside me, watching that copy of Rainmaker Does Portland that you sent me, and all of a sudden the phone rings. I answer it and I get one of those coach/lifers on the other end- you know the kind- crusty ol' goof that never met an official yet that he really liked or trusted. After he's through spitting a gallon or two at me through the earpiece, he finally comes out with "Do you know what one of your guys did tonight? We're up 1 with 2 seconds left. My guy makes a great block on a breakaway. All ball all the way. There's a foul called on my guy. I asked him whatinthehell was that foul for? And do you know what he said? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID? He told me that there wasn't any physical contact, but he tomahawked the ball and he violated the spirit of the rule. HE TOMAHAWKED THE BALL!! Now tell me, JR, whatinthehell do you have to say to that?"

To which I reply "homina, homina,homina....."

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Preach it, JR...preach it!! [/B]

Well, Rock, I just had this picture kinda flash through my head(nothing to stop it):

I get to listen to all the complaints when they initially come in. I can just see me sitting there at home one night, all cosy and comfy, nice and quiet because the wife is out, fire burning, feet up, dogs dozing beside me, watching that copy of Rainmaker Does Portland that you sent me, and all of a sudden the phone rings. I answer it and I get one of those coach/lifers on the other end- you know the kind- crusty ol' goof that never met an official yet that he really liked or trusted. After he's through spitting a gallon or two at me through the earpiece, he finally comes out with "Do you know what one of your guys did tonight? We're up 1 with 2 seconds left. My guy makes a great block on a breakaway. All ball all the way. There's a foul called on my guy. I asked him whatinthehell was that foul for? And do you know what he said? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID? He told me that there wasn't any physical contact, but he tomahawked the ball and he violated the spirit of the rule. HE TOMAHAWKED THE BALL!! Now tell me, JR, whatinthehell do you have to say to that?"

To which I reply "homina, homina,homina....."

[/B][/QUOTE]

Nice story.

Can you tell us more about the video?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Well, Rock, I just had this picture kinda flash through my head(nothing to stop it):

I get to listen to all the complaints when they initially come in. I can just see me sitting there at home one night, all cosy and comfy, nice and quiet because the wife is out, fire burning, feet up, dogs dozing beside me, watching that copy of Rainmaker Does Portland that you sent me, and all of a sudden the phone rings. I answer it and I get one of those coach/lifers on the other end- you know the kind- crusty ol' goof that never met an official yet that he really liked or trusted. After he's through spitting a gallon or two at me through the earpiece, he finally comes out with "Do you know what one of your guys did tonight? We're up 1 with 2 seconds left. My guy makes a great block on a breakaway. All ball all the way. There's a foul called on my guy. I asked him whatinthehell was that foul for? And do you know what he said? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID? He told me that there wasn't any physical contact, but he tomahawked the ball and he violated the spirit of the rule. HE TOMAHAWKED THE BALL!! Now tell me, JR, whatinthehell do you have to say to that?"

To which I reply "homina, homina,homina....."

[/B]

Nice story.

Can you tell us more about the video? [/B][/QUOTE]

DJ, if you give out any more copies of that thing, I'm going to be back at Pat's camp next year and you'll have to eval ALL my games instead of just one.

PS I finally heard the news that Karl got the rock AND the wallet for real. Of course, I'm pleased ... or I will be, after the envy wears off.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Nice story.

Can you tell us more about the video?
[/B]

DJ, if you give out any more copies of that thing, I'm going to be back at Pat's camp next year and you'll have to eval ALL my games instead of just one.

[/B][/QUOTE]You didn't think that I was kidding now, did ya Dan? Rocky said that it was some kind of training video. He was right. I learned a whole bunch of things.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
You didn't think that I was kidding now, did ya Dan? Rocky said that it was some kind of training video. He was right. I learned a whole bunch of things.

So now you have a bad case of TMI?

[Adam]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So now you have a bad case of TMI?

ROTFLMHO!