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altus Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:59am

I reported that 35 black had fouled 25 white on the floor, white ball out of bounce. As the ball was thrown in, 35 black was called for another foul. That made it his 5th, the coach from the black team said we had made a mistake on the previous call, it was 15 black not 35. So, I went to 25 white and asked him who had fouled him, his reply was 15. I then went back to the table and corrected my mistake. Is this the correct thing to do, since it was my mistake? Help, looking for answers.

Ref in PA Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:13pm

yes.

Robmoz Wed Dec 01, 2004 12:32pm

Did you ask your partner what he thought?

thumpferee Wed Dec 01, 2004 02:08pm

Quote:

Originally posted by altus
I reported that 35 black had fouled 25 white on the floor, white ball out of bounce. As the ball was thrown in, 35 black was called for another foul. That made it his 5th, the coach from the black team said we had made a mistake on the previous call, it was 15 black not 35. So, I went to 25 white and asked him who had fouled him, his reply was 15. I then went back to the table and corrected my mistake. Is this the correct thing to do, since it was my mistake? Help, looking for answers.
You already reported #35 commited the foul. End of story. You then asked an opposing team member who was it that fouled you. If I was playing, I would tell you the number of the player who was the most dominant player. What is next, asking every player who is fouled, or not, "did he foul you?"

In your stitch it is not a correctable error. The game is over for #35! Sh!t happens, learn from it, move on!

Dewey1 Wed Dec 01, 2004 02:25pm

I don't know about asking the player, but if you know you made a mistake get it right. Don't hide behind the idea that it is not correctable. We all make mitakes, it is how we deal with it that makes the difference. I strongly believe that good game managers work hard to make sure that "the crew" gets the calls right. Players and coaches respect that more I believe.

Redhouse Wed Dec 01, 2004 04:44pm

Ask Who?
 
I disagree with Thumpferee. If you know that you made an error get it fixed. I don't know that I would go to the opponent for their opinion, but I would check with my partner first and if they didn't see anything I might confer with the official scorer. I would not just come right out and ask the scorer who the foul was on, but question them in a way that they may be able to give me the answer that I was looking for. There have been times that I have accidentally reported the foul against the wrong team. On a shooting foul while I am locating the shooter I have switched the colors and reported the foul on the wrong team. I guess if this happens to thumpferee you would just say o'well, I messed up, tough luck lets move on. I would hope not. After the 1st free throw I went over to the table and corrected the problem and explained it to my partner and the coaches.

Mark Padgett Wed Dec 01, 2004 05:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dewey1
We all make mitakes
A classic.

ref18 Wed Dec 01, 2004 07:52pm

Ask someone who has nothing to gain from telling you who the foul was on. There's only one or two people like this in the gym, it's your partner. If he agrees it was 35 then keep it 35, if he says 15, then report 15 instead. If he doesn't know tell the coach that the officials do not have definite knowledge that it wasn't 35 and that you may have made a mistake but there is nothing you can do about it.

Dewey1 Thu Dec 02, 2004 02:44pm

Thanks Mark. I was hoping that someone would have caught that one =:)

Mark Padgett Thu Dec 02, 2004 05:28pm

You could use a Davism and tell the coach that since there's a question, the only fair thing is to give them both a foul. Either that, or you stick with the original call - his choice. ;)

Nevadaref Wed Jan 05, 2005 07:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by thumpferee
Quote:

Originally posted by altus
I reported that 35 black had fouled 25 white on the floor, white ball out of bounce. As the ball was thrown in, 35 black was called for another foul. That made it his 5th, the coach from the black team said we had made a mistake on the previous call, it was 15 black not 35. So, I went to 25 white and asked him who had fouled him, his reply was 15. I then went back to the table and corrected my mistake. Is this the correct thing to do, since it was my mistake? Help, looking for answers.
You already reported #35 commited the foul. End of story. You then asked an opposing team member who was it that fouled you. If I was playing, I would tell you the number of the player who was the most dominant player. What is next, asking every player who is fouled, or not, "did he foul you?"

In your stitch it is not a correctable error. The game is over for #35! Sh!t happens, learn from it, move on!

Wow, you state this with such certainty. Too bad you're not correct:

2-11-11 tells us that mistakes in record keeping may be corrected by the referee at any time until the final score is approved. The issue here is not who actually fouled, but merely who the official reported to the scorer as the fouler. That is just record keeping. The referee has knowledge of the mistake and should fix it. The intent of the NFHS rules is that you don't penalize the kid because you misread the number.

cmathews Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:05am

I disagree Nevada
 
Nevada,
I disagree, this is not a record keeping error. A record keeping error would be the scorer writing down the wrong number or not recording a three or something of that nature. With that said I still say this is one of the things that you should try to correct, just cause it is the right thing. However if much more time elapses than the original post indicates, it is too late in my mind to do much about it... I am surprised however that the coach didn't mention this situation on the original foul....

Jurassic Referee Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:21am

Re: I disagree Nevada
 
Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
Nevada,
I disagree, this is not a record keeping error. A record keeping error would be the scorer writing down the wrong number or not recording a three or something of that nature. With that said I still say this is one of the things that you should try to correct, just cause it is the right thing. However if much more time elapses than the original post indicates, it is too late in my mind to do much about it... I am surprised however that the coach didn't mention this situation on the original foul....

Nevada was completely correct. Rule 2-11-11 is explicit in backing him up. Note:
(1) "Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, <b>each foul</b>, .....notifying the referee at once of any <b>discrepancy</b>".
(2) "A bookkeeping mistake may be <b>corrected at any time until the referee approves the final score</b>".

It is <b>not</b> a correctible error under R2-10. It <b>is</b> an error that may be corrected at any time until the game ends. Rule book sez so.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 5th, 2005 at 11:26 AM]

Smitty Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:28am

Re: Re: I disagree Nevada
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by cmathews
Nevada,
I disagree, this is not a record keeping error. A record keeping error would be the scorer writing down the wrong number or not recording a three or something of that nature. With that said I still say this is one of the things that you should try to correct, just cause it is the right thing. However if much more time elapses than the original post indicates, it is too late in my mind to do much about it... I am surprised however that the coach didn't mention this situation on the original foul....

Nevada was completely correct. Rule 2-11-11 is explicit in backing him up. Note:
(1) "Compare records with the visiting scorer after each goal, <b>each foul</b>, .....notifying the referee at once of any <b>discrepancy</b>".
(2) "A bookkeeping mistake may be <b>corrected at any time until the referee approves the finasl score</b>".

It is <b>not</b> a correctible error under R2-10. It is an error that may be corrected at any time until the game ends. Rule book sez so.

The question is whether this can be defined as a bookkeeking error or an official's error. To me, a bookkeeping error in this case would be if the official reported the foul on #35 and the scorer recorded the foul on #25. But the official reported the foul on #35 and the scorer recorded the foul on #35, so no bookkeeping error. The official reported the foul on the wrong player. So it's an official's error - one which is not defined as correctable by rule. Would I correct it? Maybe - depends on how soon afterwards I was enlightened about it and who it was that enlightened me.

cmathews Wed Jan 05, 2005 11:28am

JR take another look buddy
 
JR,
You completely misunderstood my post. I am not saying bookkeeping errors can't be corrected, I know they can, when they can, and that they should be corrected. My point is that this is not a bookkeeping error, it is an officials error, they reported it incorrectly, it was not recoreded incorrectly. The scorer recorded what the official reported IE officials error. I also agree that by definition of 2-10 it is not correctable, but the right thing to do, if you have the definite knowledge is to assign the foul to the correct player, even though the closest thing we have to apply is 2-3, because no where in the book does it cover what to do when we report the wrong number.....


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