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Back In The Saddle Wed Jan 05, 2005 09:06pm

I disagree with your disagreement :)
 
It appears that we're in agreement that fixing the mistake is the right thing to do. Really that is the important thing.

As far as the specifics and our interpretation of 2-11-11, this is admittedly a gray area. But I believe that 2.10.1.A is fundamentally different situation than incorrectly reporting a fouler's number.

An official is required, by rule, to signal that a shot is a 3. There cannot be a 3-point shot without the active participation of the official. In essence, he is awarding the extra point for his judgement that the shot was taken from behind the line. If the signal does not happen, the basket counts for only 2, the default case. Failing to perform this required duty is handled under 2-10 and the timeframe for correcting this failure is clearly spelled out.

Reporting an incorrect number is not failing to perform a required duty, it is simply a mistake in handling the reporting aspect of the bookkeeping.

Taking it to an admittedly absurd extreme, imagine you call a foul on #15, but report it on #12. But there is no #12 in the book. Do we now add #12 to the book and assess an administrative T? If we class this as an official's error, then that's the way it has to be, right? Things called official's errors are called that because, in the end, everybody is stuck with the erroneous result -- like the 3 that is counted as a 2. The only exceptions are a handful of correctable errors detailed in 2-10.

Also, just because a bookkeeping error cannot be discovered by comparing the books does not mean that there wasn't one or that it cannot be fixed. Earlier this year I had a MS game where neither scorekeeper was keeping team fouls. It was not brought to my attention by the scorekeepers. It was not discovered by comparing the books. Was there a bookkeeping error? Most definitely.

Like I said earlier, the important thing is getting it fixed when you can. But I do believe that the definition of bookkeeping mistakes encompasses mistakes that occur in anywhere in the process of keeping the books, and that includes mistakes in reporting.

cmathews Wed Jan 05, 2005 09:13pm

getting it right is the most important thing for sure
 
I do agree with getting it right...and while your point is an absurd extreme it is a good point... However I would liken it to more of a stepping up and reporting 12 then realizing that it was 15....so I still disagree that the reporting is part of the bookkeeping but as long as the result is corrected that is the important thing :)

and the best part is that it makes us all get in the books to read and re read things we thought we had memorized :) which is way more valuable than how we arive at the correct solution

[Edited by cmathews on Jan 5th, 2005 at 09:19 PM]

Kelvin green Thu Jan 06, 2005 12:59am

This is getting nuts!

Let's use some common sense here. The officials are going to have to be aware there is an issue.

If I call 4 fouls on a player and my partner calls one and I know he should be going out and I dont get something from th table I will find out what is happening.

If I misreported a foul in the first quarter I am not going to fix it in the fourth because we have called a bunch (unless there is something that really just made the foul memorable for some reason)

I have reported a foul wrong, and went back and changed it but it was within a play or so of messing it up.

We just should not get wrapped around the axle on what bookeeping means and splitting hairs on a definition.

Nevadaref Thu Jan 06, 2005 06:15am

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
The error is in the reporting, that is a bookkeeping function. Please note that the rule talks about a bookkeeping error, not a bookkeeper error. Bookkeeping is the process, not the person. If the official is certain that he reported it incorrectly, it can be changed at any time before the final score is approved.
Just for the record, BITS has stated my stance on this quite well. I agree with what he wrote here 100%.
The call on the action on the floor was correct, after that everything else is recordkeeping. The transmission process of getting that information into written form broke down.

To me the scorer is merely the stenographer for the offical on the court. If the official had a pen and paper in his pocket that he pulled out and recorded the fouls (as is done in soccer) or if he physically went over to the table after each foul and wrote in the book himself, and made a mistake in doing so (say wrote 15 instead of 35), is there anyone who would contend that this is not a bookkeeping mistake?

To insist that this is an official's mistake and not a bookkeeping mistake is playing semantics and failing to recognize the bigger picture; the end result of the mistake was a bookkeeping error. It doesn't matter who caused it (the official or the scorer); all that is important is the result.
There really was a foul on the court, the people charged with recording that foul in writing didn't do it properly, and a player got charged with a foul committed by a teammate. That is bookkeeping.

Lastly, it my understanding that an "official's mistake" is something done on the playing court having to do with the administration of the game. It is a physical action. Handing the ball to the wrong team for a throw-in as in 7.5.2 Sit B or shooting FTs in the wrong order as in 8.7 Sit B are two good examples.
There is no way to go back in time and not hand that kid the ball, but pencils do have erasers!

I'm now quite glad that I went back a month and posted on this thread, since it has generated even more responses and thought. I actually felt that we did not originally give it proper discussion. Perhaps the NFHS will even write a Case Book play on this to clarify it for everyone just because of our extended discussion. It wouldn't be the first time.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Jan 6th, 2005 at 06:21 AM]

Mark Dexter Thu Jan 06, 2005 11:43am

First, correctable errors (the 2-10 variety) and their time limits don't apply here. Correctable errors all involve scoring plays (direction/basket, who the shooter is, counting/cancelling a score, missing/adding a FT), NOT fouls.

For the "bookkeeping mistake" school - I guess you could go by this, but I don't think this falls under that heading or really fits with the "comparing fouls, points, etc." argument that has been brought up.

My take on this is that, as long as you are certain the foul was on #15 and not #35, you have to change the book - using three reasons/examples:

1) Common sense - no matter who we report the foul on, #15 committed it (ask Chuck for an explaination of the philosophy/metaphysics behind this :p). Don't penalize #35 for what he didn't do.

2) Rule 4-14-1 - a player is disqualified upon coach notification after committing his/her fifth personal foul. Note that the rule doesn't say "when the scorebook has five fouls recorded for that player."

3) D-I examples: many times during a game that I'm scorekeeping, I'll record a foul, and the official will come over a few minutes later (usually during a media timeout) and correct the foul - saying it was on #X instead of #Y. The fact that this has happened multiple times, with many different officials (including some on the "Top Five" list :p) indicates to me that it's acceptable by rule. (Or, alternately, if they didn't correct this, their assignors would take away games for being boneheads.)


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