Question, Does it count?

[walter]

This sitution brought out a lot of discussion at our board meeting the other night so I thought I'd run it by this crew. This happened in a game one of our officials had and they weren't sure they got it right. A1 releases the ball on try. While the ball is in flight and outside the cylinder, A2 grabs and hangs on the rim (why, we don't know?!?!). Official immediately blows his whistle and bangs A2 with a technical foul. Ball subsequently enters the basket. Official waves off the basket. Question is since the ball was out of A1's hands and clearly in flight, should the basket have counted? I believe the technical foul does not immediately kill the play and, therefore, because the ball was out of A1's hand and clearly in flight, the goal should have counted. However, some other officials on our board felt that the technical foul immediately killed the play. The closest case book play I could find is 10.3.8D.

[Rookie]

Without a rule book, I will wing it.

The hanging on the rim would be a T, and also Goal Tending.... If a player is fouled during a shot, and the ball is hit away while in the cylinder, then the shot would count. I don't see why this would be different.

(I do know the difference is a common personal and unsportsman like technical is the difference.)

If A1 shoots the ball and on his way done, B1 punches him in his stomach, and the ball went in, would the goal count?

[Mark Padgett]

I think you got the correct case. The point of the case is not that the technical was called for elbows, but that a technical was called on the shooting team while the ball was in flight and the goal counts.

Look at NF rule 6.7.5 exception 1. It states the ball becomes dead on the whistle except if the whistle occurs while a try or tap is in flight.

Although there seems to be conflicting rules (4.6.1 and 10.3.5) regarding touching the ring (intentionally) while the ball is in or above the cylinder as to whether it is BI or a T, I believe the T takes precedence. The conflict may be moot in your case, because you seem to indicate the ball was in flight, but not necessarily over the cylinder when A2 grabbed the ring.

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Feb 5th, 2001 at 03:24 PM]

[Brian Watson]

To me, this does not seem to fit the definition of goal tending or BI, so I would let the bucket count.

Chalk this up as bizarre!

[Todd VandenAkker]

I agree. The ball itself was not touched--so no goaltending--and the ball was not ON the ring when the player grabbed the rim--so no basket interference. Would not have mattered if the ball was within the imaginary cylinder above the ring, as long as the player didn't touch the ball. So, count the basket and assess the "T".

[BktBallRef]

No, the T does not kill the shot but where was the ball when A2 let go of the rim? If he was still holding onto the rim and the ball entered the basket, we have BI.

Originally posted by Rookie
The hanging on the rim would be a T, and also Goal Tending....

Goaltending is when the ball is touched on it's downwward flight and is not in the imaginery cylinder. This isn't GT.

If a player is fouled during a shot, and the ball is hit away while in the cylinder, then the shot would count. I don't see why this would be different.

The ball isn't touched.

If A1 shoots the ball and on his way done, B1 punches him in his stomach, and the ball went in, would the goal count?

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a noise?

Different Play
A1 is in the act of shooting but the ball is not yet in flight when (a) A2 fouls B2, or (b) B2 fouls A2. The shot goes in. Does the basket count in (a) or (b)?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Walter is correct that NFHS Casebook Play 10.3.8D is the play that covers this situation. The key as to whether A1's try for goal will be scored is whether A2 was still touching the rim when the ball went through the basket. If A2 was touching the rim when the ball went through the rim A2 is also of guilty of offensive basket interference and the goal does not count. If A2 was not touching the basket the goal does count. But you still have a technical foul on A2 for grabbing the rim.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Different Play
A1 is in the act of shooting but the ball is not yet in flight when (a) A2 fouls B2, or (b) B2 fouls A2. The shot goes in. Does the basket count in (a) or (b)?

In Play (a) the ball is dead immediately. In Play (b) the ball does not become dead until the shot is made or missed, and will count if it goes through the basket.

[PAULK1]

See 6-7-5 and ex 1-3 and the note
If A's try is released then the graping by A2 occurs
count the basket and award the T. (EX 1)

If A's is in the act of shooting but not released
before the grasping ball is dead immediately and no shot
as this is a foul by the offense (ex 3)

If the ball is over the rim when the grasping occurs
BI cancel the basket and award the T (see note and 10.5.3b casebook)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PAULK1
If the ball is over the rim when the grasping occurs
BI cancel the basket and award the T (see note and 10.3.5b casebook)

Are you sure about that Paul?

[Bradley Batt]

If the ball is over the rim when the grasping occurs BI cancel the basket and award the T (see note and 10.3.5b casebook)

Paul - I think that you are misreading the case (there are two scenarios - a and b).

You can only have basket interference if a player touches the ball while it is in the cylinder OR if a player touches the rim while the ball is ON the rim.

That's it. You cannot have BI for the ball being within the cylinder and the player touching the rim (no matter what coaches and fans say!)

Ruling: Assess the technical. If the ball goes in, it counts.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Bradley Batt

Paul - I think that you are misreading the case (there are two scenarios - a and b).

You can only have basket interference if a player touches the ball while it is in the cylinder OR if a player touches the rim while the ball is ON the rim.

That's it. You cannot have BI for the ball being within the cylinder and the player touching the rim (no matter what coaches and fans say!)

Ruling: Assess the technical. If the ball goes in, it counts.

My point exactly! It's an important point to remember, too. When you're in the heat of the game, the ball's in the imaginary cylinder, a player jumps up and touches the rim and you blow the whistle, you've just screwed the pooch!