Wouda, couda, shouda, but didn’t.

I agree that Artest should not have approached the fan in any way. But I understand why he did and think many others would do the same. When you throw something at anyone, be prepared for their reaction. When Artest went into the stands, he should be prepared for the reaction as well. I really have no problem with what his teammates did at all, because they were getting their teammate of a bad situation. They had every right to hit whoever was attacking them. The fans when they came onto the floor should have been prepared for the reaction the received as well.

Players should not have their space violated. Whether it is a thrown object or the presence of people threatening them directly, the players have a right to work in a place that they do not have to put up with that kind of behavior. If you really want to talk about morals and professionalism, let us address the use of alcohol at sporting events. Let us address how if that kind of behavior was in any other segment of society, they people would not be allowed to participate in the event.

Like I have always said here, you can be right and wrong at the same time. Maybe Artest will loose some games and so will his teammates. Yes the fans did not deserve being attacked. But just because you do something, does not mean someone will not react to you. In many circles the action of this fan would have brought much more than a couple of punches to his face. I blame them first because they were the spark that started the fire. And individuals that had nothing to do with the altercation continued their despicable behavior. There where children around and in the area. None of these adults took any account of that.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

Then I would sue the individual that started the altercation. Why are you throwing things when you were not involved in the on court fight? Why are you drinking like an idiot in public and cannot control your actions? The NBA is just as responsible and should be sued by players that have continuously have seen these events and allow them time and time again.

I am not saying the player take no responsibility. I am saying that we need to stop justifying the actions of adults that drink and say anything. As far as I am concerned, the women that got hit in the face should take a great deal of responsibility for her noise being broken when you confront players and say things to people you would never say outside of that sporting event. I do not know about you, but I have seen some people get in the face and call a person names and usually they did not just walk away. Maybe their first reaction was not to throw a punch, but they did not just stand there and take it.

Peace

Actually a player DID start this, Ben Wallace started it. When he over-reacted to Artest's foul and clocked Artest. He then continued after Artest by throwing a towel at Artest while he lay on the scorer's table.

Let's put it in a different context. Someone is in a parking lot outside a bar and some drunken idiot throws a beer at them, they get in their car and drive through dozens of innocent people to run over the beer thrower.

Justified?

Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

LOL. Some of your most intelligent comments ever. LOL! Rut for NBA commissioner. LOL! Let's start letting murder defendents off the hook for self defense if the victim poured beer on them first. Good call.

The fans were idiots. Nobody is debating that. However, Artests and Jacksons actions were criminal and there is no justication for that.

Actually, the last time I went to an NBA game was about 10 years ago. Some drunken idiot behind me did spill beer on me and was swearing and being a dumbass from the opening whistle. Did I turn around and beat the heck out of him? Nope. I moved. Another option may have been to go get security to have him ejected. Even had it been intentional, spilling beer on someone is not the same as taking swings at someone which could maim or even kill.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Nov 21st, 2004 at 04:42 PM]

I think a few people are missing the boat here. I'll try to sum it up this way...

1. Ben Wallace should have never shoved Artest
2. The fan should have never thrown a cup of beer at Artest
3. The fans behaved like the typical drunken idiots that they are

You can blame the whole altercation on the Pistons and their fans and you're probably 100% right but guess what...... that still does NOT justify Artest and his teamates going into the stands and taking matters into their own hands.

Indiana fans can blame everything on everyone else but the bottom line is the NBA dropped the axe on Artest, O'Neal and Jackson - that's atleast 50% of their scoring that will disappear for most of the regular season. Now you tell me who the idiots are....?

One other note - Why was Artest laying down on the scorer's table anyway? Doing a dumb thing like this make's you a prime taget fan abuse. Does that mean he deserved to get a beer thrown at him? Absolutely NOT. However, when you do stupids things like that you put yourself in bad situations. I think there were plenty of areas he could have went to other than where he went. Again, I'm not justifying a fan throwing an object at him but his smart a$$ personality led him to once again, make some bad choices.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Nov 21st, 2004 at 06:20 PM]

Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

Sure that makes since. Of course. Why not?

It amazes me how people take things to the extreme to justify their point of view. :rolleyes:

Peace

Re: Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

So, you are saying KILLING an innocent bystander is okay if you get hit with liquid? Unfreakin believable. There is nothing extreme about it. You don't think it was possible in that situation for a small child to have been seriously hurt or killed by a 6'8" 230 pound person completely out of control?

FYI, the NBA does not agree. Artest just got the boot for the season and his punch happy teammates are gone for 30 and 25.;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

You can be sarcastic all you like, but I never said that you do not punish the players or not take action. But I think the actions of the players and how the league handles it are two different things. I would suggest that what the league has done (suspensions) was too far and they are not taking action to prevent this type of behavior.

So was the action of the fans. The throwing of the beer is assault. I say take them all to court over this issue.

Actually, the last time I went to an NBA game was about 10 years ago. Some drunken idiot behind me did spill beer on me and was swearing and being a dumbass from the opening whistle. Did I turn around and beat the heck out of him? Nope. I moved.[/B][/QUOTE]

What if that clown threw beer or any drink at your kids face? Do you really think you would just move on? And the issue is not about someone spilling a beer and being obnoxious. We are talking about someone throwing beer, a chair and other objects in the direction of players. Then coming onto the court and confronting players.

I think you need to read my comments again. I did not say any action was justified. I said I understand. I think we were talking about blame here and how things got out of hand. And if you do not want someone to attack you, you do not throw things at them. If you do not want people to react to you, you do not say certain things to them. If you do not want to get hurt, try everything you can to keep yourself out of a situation in which you play no personal role.

Now the NBA took action, but I would sue the pants of the NBA and any other organization that allows fans to drink beer and act out of hand. I do not drink beer or much alcohol at all. I do not understand the need to sell beer and to drink beer at sporting events. If you cannot enjoy the game without getting drunk, I really will never understand that. You cannot sell beer at college sporting events for the most part. Fans enjoy themselves there. The NBA and these other leagues want to have a family atmosphere, yet they allow drinking and other less than responsible behavior to continue at games.

This was not the first time something like this happen, it will not be the last. I think all pro players have a right to be protected from this kind of fan behavior. And I think the NBA Player's Association has a legitimate beef with the NBA and so does MLB to file grievances with their respective leagues on how the fans have confronted players.

Peace

Re: Re: Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

Yeah, that is what I said. So much you totally missed the sarcasm in my post. I really hope you are not that emotional you can understand sarcasm? Basically what you said was asinine and is the reason I say, "Sure!"

Did the swarms of fans take into account the children or older individuals around? I find it funny you want to put this on Artest and not the thousands of people that were standing around.

The funny thing is that is not the issue. There were no children hurt. There was an elderly person in part of the fight, but I do not know if that was as a result of the actual fight in the stands with players. There were swarms of people that interjected themselves into an issue that totally took place on the court.

I do not know that the NBA agrees or disagrees with my point of view. The NBA is doing what is essentially what a PR move is. They are not doing what is in the best interest of the players that they have to protect from being seen as "justifying" the behavior of their players. But in all other incidences when alcohol is involved, laws and rules in many places have made policies for behavior. The NBA and these leagues have allowed drinking to go on and do not take the actions as is typical in other arenas as it relates to conduct of customers. If this was a bar, Artest and O'Neal would have an issue with the bar that did not provide the proper security at their job or of other customers.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

We are talking liquid in plastic cups, popcorn in paper containers. This is not a gun, a knife, a pipe, a bat,a fist, or batteries, it was LIQUID.

The fans that are caught on tape should go to jail, and so should the players.

Like I said in my first post, if a fan is on the court fine it's an actual threat of attack and fine, knock them out, that is self defense.

Going into the stands trampling over INNOCENT people, escalating a situation that endangered even more people is not self defense, it is a crime.

I'd hate to think that you are so emotional that you'd condone stupid and dangerous behavior as justified.

Murder?
 

No sh!t McFly!! You went to school to learn that logic you keep using?

Not sure I agree. The action of certain players can be taken into account based on their role in the incident.

Well that is what happen in other incidents.


Oh PUULEEESSS!!! Artest did not trample over anyone to get to that guy that threw the beer. He went right at the guy and knew who he wanted to retaliate against. It might be a crime to hit the guy. But that is for a judge and a prosecutor to determine. No one here is going to make that decision ultimately. And you do not know the laws in the state of Michigan and how those laws will be enforced. Charges could be dropped and they might decide to go after the fans that participated. The NBA cannot suspend fans, but the law can take actions against people that violated the law. I am sure there will be more than fans that will get prosecuted here.

I did not condone or justify anyone's behavior. I am saying that if you do not want to start a fire, you do not play with matches. You are trying to make this a moral issue based on what is essentially a lie. Then you try to compare a situation that did not take place to justify you point of view. Murder? Trampling? Involuntary Homicide? It is very silly to me when you try to misrepresent the actions of all parties. No one was killed or shot anyone with a gun. There were no fans trampled by Artest. There were fans that interjected themselves on an on-court event. Now that did happen. There were fans that were not involved in the fight between Artest and that beer throwing fan and started hitting players that did not hit them. I did see O'Neal protecting himself when they went after Artest. Now the camera did not show everything and I was not there in person to know for sure. I do know that if someone was hitting me from behind in the back of the head, I am sure I would not just sit there and take it.

Peace

For all you clowns blaming the fans for this mess:

What Ron Artest lost: $5,200,000 (his 04/05 NBA salary).

What the guy who threw the beer lost: $8 (beer's expensive at sports venues).

Artest showed us all how tough he is. Don't disrespect Ron Artest. No sir, do not test Ron Artest.

Teaching us all that lesson only cost him $5,200,000. So far.

Re: Murder?
 

This is my last reply because you obviously DON'T get it.

There was no reason to go in the stands NONE, ZIP, NADA. Nothing that was done justifies what happened. No way Artest saw who threw the beer, the tape shows him looking up and toward the court, AND the guy he attacked was still HOLDING a cup.

You like to say I'm going to extremes, but you have yet to disprove that there were innocent fans between the court and where the fighting took place.And large out of control men were going over, through, and past them to attack who they THOUGHT threw beer at them.

That is no different then idiots shooting at each other past innocent people. The fact that nobody got seriously hurt, does not lessen the risk that two groups of idiots put them under, because they cannot control themselves.

Neither side was justified in their actions, and all of them should be punished for what happened. That is NOT PR it's called JUSTICE.

Oh, my!!!!
 

I don't think that year suspension will fly.
at least I hop it doesn't.
Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.
mick

Artest is getting a long vacation. Just as well, you can't play away games when you're in jail.