Unsportsmanlike?

[RookieDude]

Easy...if the official is "on the ball".

7 seconds left.
White taps ball toward Blue, ball rolls toward wall...clock keeps running...6, 5, 4, 3, tweet!
Delay warning to White.
Blue has ball for Spot Throw-in w/ 3 seconds left and up by 5.

[blindzebra]

This is a no right answer situation, but calling the T was wrong.

My opinion, you have two teams playing heads up basketball.
B is smart to use the time, A was smart for trying to force the throw in.

The count should have started on B, as the ball was available for a throw in. When A contacted the ball and it was no longer available, you have to stop the clock and warn for delay.

B gets some time off and A forces the throw in, so both teams get partially rewarded for heads up play.

[Edited by blindzebra on Nov 18th, 2004 at 01:12 PM]

[IAABO_Ref]

I don't think so could be wrong.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by IAABO_Ref
I don't think so could be wrong.

See 9.2.11 CMT

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BushRef

I don't have my books in front of me, but I believe there is a provision in the rules that allows for a T even on the first delay in this situation when simply giving a warning would give the team that just scored an advantage by stopping the clock as they are wanting.

9.2.11 comment.

Although, I don't think it really applies to this play as it was described.

The act of touching by A was not an attempt to force a warning, they were trying to make B throw it in.

[IAABO_Ref]

That's for a reach and hitting the ball out of the throwers hand.

[SamIAm]

Originally posted by BushRef

The comment says a throw in plance violation OR interfering with the ball following a goal--not just hitting it out of their hand. And if, as the original poster said later, the player sent the ball 12 feet back to the wall, I've got a T on the team defending the throw-in at this point in the game.

I think you are seeing this wrong BushRef. The ball was not pushed or touched to prevent or hinder the inbounding team from inbounding. The inbounder chose not to catch or pick-up the ball that was at their disposal.

For example, a made basket bounces out to the freethrow line. A defender rolls or bounces the ball toward the inbounder. The inbounder choses not to catch or pick-up the ball and lets it roll until it hits a wall or stops. You don't whack the defender for that action.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by BushRef

The comment says a throw in plance violation OR interfering with the ball following a goal--not just hitting it out of their hand. And if, as the original poster said later, the player sent the ball 12 feet back to the wall, I've got a T on the team defending the throw-in at this point in the game.

Could be a T (If unsporting) proper call is a warning for delay. Give ball back (hand it to the team throwing it in this time) to original team. Seven second left in the game defensive team has gained an advatage (odds highly stacked against them I admit) because you did stop the clock with the T. Incidently I might "hold my whistle" and get it down to 3 seconds before I called the violation.

[Camron Rust]

I'm late getting in on this one...

When the thrower could have had the ball OOB for the throwin, I start my count. If I get to 5 before the clock expires I'll call a throwin violation.

If that ball was OOB and at the feet of the thrower, I'll definitely have a count going. If the defense then reaches across the line and touches the ball, it will be a T.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by BushRef

Huh??

Riddle me this why would you call a Technical Foul? Assuming of course no warning for delay has previously been given and defensive team has not reached across the plane and touched the ball?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BushRef

Sam--

THis is the additional info posted by the original poster that I am referring to. White had no reason to touch the ball in this situation. As innocent as it may have looked, they sent the ball to the wall. I guess the other thing you can do in this situation, and I'll probably get called out for this too, but you don't start your count til the ball is "at the disposal." Since white sent the ball 12 feet to the wall, I'm giving blue a reasonable opportunity to get the ball before I begin my count. If that means my count doesn't start for 3 seconds, so now we have 4 on the clock, the game quite possibly ends before a throw in is even required. I guess what I'm saying is, there's no way I'm stopping the clock to help white in this situation, unless it's with a T as I believe is allowed by the case book comment.

The ball was ALREADY at B's disposal BEFORE A contacted it, and the 5 second count SHOULD have already started.

The rules provide for the throw in to begin if the throwing team CAN pick up the ball and throw it in, but are delaying.

The official should have started a count on B, the touching by A at that point would be a delay, but I don't think it falls under the 9.2.11 play, because A's intent was not to cause a stoppage for a delay warning.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by BushRef

They have interfered with the throw in teams opportunity to throw in the ball. Normally, this is a warning the first time, but when it happens late in the game like this and the defending team would gain an advantage by having the clock stopped on only a warning, the casebook calls for a T with no warning.

The defending team is losing. It's to their advantage to stop the clock. I fail to see how the defending team (if losing) is gaining an advantage by preventing the team that is winning from inbounding the ball.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BushRef

I'm fine with this, and in this case, I just keep counting til I get to 5 or until the ball is released on the throw in. But under no circumstance am I going to stop the clock and give that benefit of a stopped clock to the team defending the throw in.

That's what I said in my first post. The only one doing the wrong thing in this play was the official that called the T on the throwing team.

You have B rightfully delaying to run the clock, you have A attempting to get the ball to B, but they are not hitting it into a corner or breaking the plane to purposely delay.

You have two teams playing heads up ball.

We have a rule that supports starting the count.

We have rule support for calling a delay and a non-warned T for delay.

What seems the fairest based on game situation and the intent of the players is to start the count, have some time come off and warn, but not T, A for delay and get it done.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BushRef

Why would you even blow your whistle in this situation to WARN? By doing this, A has gained an advantage by getting the clock stopped. Or are you advocating that you just yell a warning to them while the clock runs and your count continues? If I blow my whistle on this one, the throwin team is gonna be shooting 2 and getting the ball at the diviion line.

Because A has touched the ball away from B's disposal, if you continue the count to a 5 second violation, I guarantee A will be shooting 2 FTs after B's coach gets the T.

Yes, you have rules support and would not be wrong in giving A a T, but I think a warning is more appropriate in this situation.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BushRef

I just don't see stopping the clock and giving the defense thje benefit of a stopped clock in this situation. Seems wrong to me.

What based on B's stalling did A truely gain in this situation? A is down 5 with 7 seconds left, we have 3 possible outcomes:

1) B stalls down to 1 or 2 seconds and whistle violation, A's ball, still down 5. 1a) You ignore A's touch and keep counting to the violation and you have to whack B's coach.

2) You call the T on A for an unwarned delay, B shoots 2 gets ball at division line up 5,6, or 7 with 3 or 4 seconds left.

3) You start your count on B, blow your whistle on the touch by A and warn, B's ball up 5 with 3 or 4 seconds left with the end line to run.

1 and 1a benefit A.

2 benefits B and the penalty based on the intent, as discribed, seems harsh.

3 does not hurt either team, the only difference is B can't take the running clock down to 1 or 2 seconds. A gained a couple of seconds life, and B keeps the ball and the end line run. Seems very fair based on this situation.