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-   -   Case Book 4.43.3 A (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/16369-case-book-4-43-3-a.html)

OldCoachNewRef Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:24pm

A1 rises to attemp a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands. While A1 and the ball are still in the air, A1 recovers the ball, comes back to the floor and starts a new dribble. Official rules the play is legal. Is the official correct?

This was a test question in class. Having just read through the case book I answered No. I got the question wrong.

4.43.3 sit A: A1 jumps to try for a goal. B1 also jumps and... (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball...
Ruling: ....In (c) a travelling violation.

My question, is there a difference between a block and a touch? Is this up to the judgement of the official?

rainmaker Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attemp a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands. While A1 and the ball are still in the air, A1 recovers the ball, comes back to the floor and starts a new dribble. Official rules the play is legal. Is the official correct?

This was a test question in class. Having just read through the case book I answered No. I got the question wrong.

4.43.3 sit A: A1 jumps to try for a goal. B1 also jumps and... (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball...
Ruling: ....In (c) a travelling violation.

My question, is there a difference between a block and a touch? Is this up to the judgement of the official?

I suppose you might say the difference is whether the ball left the shooter's hands. In your test question, it did. In the case book, it sounds as though it didn't.

OldCoachNewRef Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:41pm

4.43..3
 
Why wouldn't the touch then be a jump ball?

blindzebra Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attemp a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands. While A1 and the ball are still in the air, A1 recovers the ball, comes back to the floor and starts a new dribble. Official rules the play is legal. Is the official correct?

This was a test question in class. Having just read through the case book I answered No. I got the question wrong.

4.43.3 sit A: A1 jumps to try for a goal. B1 also jumps and... (c) touches the ball and A1 returns to the floor holding the ball...
Ruling: ....In (c) a travelling violation.

My question, is there a difference between a block and a touch? Is this up to the judgement of the official?

You have 3 possible calls on this play:

1. A1 shoots and B1 blocks it. Control for purposes of a travelling violation ENDED on the shot, so play on.

2. A1 goes up and B1 gets a hand(s) on the ball and stops the release of the ball on a try or pass. Held ball and go to arrow.

3. A1 goes up and B1 touches the ball, but does not stop the shot and A1 never releases the ball for a try, A1 returns to the floor for the old "up and down" travelling call.

blindzebra Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:52pm

Re: 4.43..3
 
Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
Why wouldn't the touch then be a jump ball?
The action by B getting a hand(s) on the ball keeps A1 from releasing the ball. A touch does not keep A1 from releasing the ball. ;)

OldCoachNewRef Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:55pm

So the touch is while the player is in motion and not on the release in the casebook? Now it is beginning to make sense, thanks.

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 09, 2004 05:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attempt a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands before it's released. The ball now goes directly into the back court and A2 is the first player to touch it.
I changed the play a little. What's the call now?

blindzebra Tue Nov 09, 2004 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attempt a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands before it's released. The ball now goes directly into the back court and A2 is the first player to touch it.
I changed the play a little. What's the call now?

Did the blocked ball touch A1 after B1 hit it?

If it did not touch A1 post hit, I've got nothing. If it did touch A1 I have a back court violation on A2.

Team A maintains team control until a try is released, so we have a last to touch-first to touch situation with either B1 to A2 with nothing or A1 to A2 and a violation.

Jurassic Referee Tue Nov 09, 2004 07:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attempt a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands before it's released. The ball now goes directly into the back court and A2 is the first player to touch it.
I changed the play a little. What's the call now?

Did the blocked ball touch A1 after B1 hit it?


BZ, B1 swatted the ball directly out of the shooter-A1's- hands before it left his hands on the try, and the blocked shot then didn't touch another player- including A1- before it went into the backcourt and was touched by A2.

Call?

mdray Tue Nov 09, 2004 07:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attempt a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands before it's released. The ball now goes directly into the back court and A2 is the first player to touch it.
I changed the play a little. What's the call now?


let A2 "play on"; (begin a new 10 second count)

blindzebra Wed Nov 10, 2004 01:23am

Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Quote:

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
A1 rises to attempt a jump shot. B1 rises with A1 and blocks the shot out of A1's hands before it's released. The ball now goes directly into the back court and A2 is the first player to touch it.
I changed the play a little. What's the call now?

Did the blocked ball touch A1 after B1 hit it?


BZ, B1 swatted the ball directly out of the shooter-A1's- hands before it left his hands on the try, and the blocked shot then didn't touch another player- including A1- before it went into the backcourt and was touched by A2.

Call?

I answered after my question, no loss of team control. B1 was the last to touch it in the FC and A2 first to touch it in the BC, so play on.

Why do I get the feeling there's some weird exception making this a BC violation.:D

bob jenkins Wed Nov 10, 2004 09:21am

Quote:

Originally posted by mdray



let A2 "play on"; (begin a new 10 second count)

Note that the count should begin as soon as the ball reaches the BC, not when A2 touches the ball.

Had A1 released the ball on the try, then B2 swatted it into the BC, the count would begin when A2 controlled the ball.


coachz_216 Wed Nov 10, 2004 09:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:

Originally posted by mdray



let A2 "play on"; (begin a new 10 second count)

Note that the count should begin as soon as the ball reaches the BC, not when A2 touches the ball.

Had A1 released the ball on the try, then B2 swatted it into the BC, the count would begin when A2 controlled the ball.


Why does the count start as soon as the ball reaches the backcourt?

I would think it wouldn't start until A2 touched it.


bob jenkins Wed Nov 10, 2004 09:59am

Quote:

Originally posted by coachz_216
Quote:

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:

Originally posted by mdray



let A2 "play on"; (begin a new 10 second count)

Note that the count should begin as soon as the ball reaches the BC, not when A2 touches the ball.

Had A1 released the ball on the try, then B2 swatted it into the BC, the count would begin when A2 controlled the ball.


Why does the count start as soon as the ball reaches the backcourt?

I would think it wouldn't start until A2 touched it.


Team A had control, the ball was in the BC ===> the count starts.


coachz_216 Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:05am

Why does the count start as soon as the ball reaches the backcourt?

I would think it wouldn't start until A2 touched it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Team A had control, the ball was in the BC ===> the count starts.

[/B][/QUOTE]

So you're saying that if the ball is blocked directly out of the shooter's hand then team A retains control, but if the shooter releases the shot and then it is blocked, team A is not in control until they regain possession of the ball?

Just trying to get a clarification.

Is the same true in other situations such as deflecting a pass, knocking a ball away from a dribbler, or what about deflecting an interrupted dribble?

...not disagreeing, just trying to learn something.

Thanks


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