I worked a tournament all weekend, great way to get ready for the year, but had an odd situation at the end of a 6th grade girls final (imagine, an odd situation in 6th grade girls?!). Anyway, I'm T, my partner is L. He is inbounding the ball on the baseline after held ball # 467 in the game, game is tied 18 all. A is inbounding B is defending. A1 is running short on the 5 second count and throws the ball at B1's feet. The ball bounces back and hits A1 oob. My partner "screws the pooch" as they say and calls A ball and gets the girls ready to inbound. B coach starts to try to get my partner's attention but gets mine and wants me to come over and talk. I don't go as my partner is already handing the ball to the inbounder. We end up going to overtime and between overtime B coach wants to know why I wouldn't talk to him. I told him that he needed to call a timeout if he wanted to talk to me. I was T and had now idea what Coach B was complaining about . I tried to explain to Coach B that if there was a question about a judgement that my partner and I can talk about it, but I couldn't hold up the game to go talk to him without a timeout. Looking back, I should have explained that this was not a correctable error so we just play on. I did tell my partner he did the right thing in getting the ball in quickly because had we reversed his call after Coach B complained, we would have had a madhouse on our hands. Luckily B won in overtime. Anyway, sorry this is long, but any thoughts on what could have been done differently, besides not making the mistake in the first place? Thanks in advance.

IMO there would have been nothing wrong with blowing the whistle & stopping the game for a word with Coach B at that point. The play seemed unusual, the coach wanted an explanation, wouldn't have hurt to give it to him especially since it looks like you knew your partner might have had it wrong anyway. As for getting the ball in quickly to avoid trouble...nah. If something unusual happens there's nothing wrong with making sure the crew got it right, even if it takes a few seconds to huddle and another few seconds to explain what just happened including why you are or are not changing the original call.

Of course, don't take too long dong this & don't do it too often! ;)

If I knew my partner was wrong on who last touched the ball, I would blow my whistle and discuss it with my partner. It's up to him to change the call.

The play you describe could just as easily have been a pass into traffic that is tipped without your partner seeing it. If you have definite knowledge, let your partner know and he can decide if he thinks it should be changed.

Game is tied.
You see your partner "make a mistake". You saw it so you can sure as heck that a ton of others thought there was something wrong.
Blow the whistle and go in and ask. If you dont you know the coach is going to be asking...

All you have to do is go into your partner and ask what he saw. If it hit A OOB -tell him that it needs to be B's ball...

At least you have an idea of what you will tell coach B by the time you get to trail area.

There is nothing by rule that requires a coach to call time out to talk to an official. You can always hold up a gme to get the call right. Especially if it a rule interpretation and this may have been.

Had you reversed the call, you may have gotten it right. You get the coaches together and explain what was seen and what rule is (maybe admitting that rule was interpreted wrong) and it is B's ball by rule.

You may have a crowd that doesnt like the fact you got the call right, so what? If a referee doesnt have enough guts to get the call right then we have no business being on the floor.

The question is you make a mistake. B should have had the ball under their own basket.

My personal opinion. Correctable errors are not the only things correctable in the game and dont get stuck in that mindset.

We can correct arrows that are not right. (There are no provisions if we screw up and inbound incorrectly but) Table doesnt switch arrow... and we notice they dont so we just leave it? no we fix it.

We know a player has had 5 fouls but we let it go because the book doesnt tell us they have been DQ'd.

We check the scorebook and there is a discrepancy in the score but we just ignore it because if we take time to fix it or fix it the crowd will get mad?

Trail watches a shot hit nothing but air and goes OOB, partner hands back to A because he thought it was tipped but you know it was an airball but we need to get it in play and it was a mistake of judgement and can't be corrected?

You can see where I am going.... GET IT RIGHT!

I agree that if I had seen the violation, I would have talked it over with him. I actually didn't know what the coach was upset about until we discussed it between the 4th and overtime. I was watching my area. That was the main reason I didn't go over to the coach before the ball was inbounded. I saw no reason to talk to him unless he asks for a timeout.

Didn't you say that you saw your partner "screw the pooch"? So you did see the violation as you put it, or actually a mistake by your partner. Blow you whistle, stop the game and as everyone else has put it get it right!

He didn't say he saw it. He just gave a rundown of what happened...perhaps from the later conversation.

Yep, I didn't see it. My partner came to me on the way to the table for the overtime and told me what happenend. It was then that I understood what the coach was complaining about. My thoughts on it were that he did the right thing because stopping and reversing would have led to more problems, especially if the other coach would have saw me talking to Coach B before we changed the call. Getting it right is always the best, but sometimes you have to ride out your mistakes.

Your partner knew he had the wrong call? Your partner knew Coach B saw the wrong call was made? And your partner didn't address it? Not good.

If I was Coach B there would not have been an overtime because I would have ended up with a T in that situation.

Anyway, you asked for advice and I'll give mine again: don't be afraid to fix obvious mistakes. Don't be afraid to answer questions from the coach, don't be afraid to give explanations. It's much better to take the heat for fixing an obvious screw-up than it is to take the heat for being too stubborn to acknowledge something might be wrong.

:)

Dan_ref, I agree with you that we shouldn't be afraid to answer coaches' questions, but in that situaion, I didn't think it would have been in our best interest as a crew to hold up the game while I walked across the floor to talk to the coach and then change a call. If it happens again, I'll evaluate the situation considering the thoughts shared here and see what fits best. Thanks.

Facetiously....
 

I had the follow-on game...

Same situation happened in my game...

I however, gave the ball to the correct team that played good defense...

Lot's of screaming over that one...

It's almost as if someone was educating the fans/players/coaches incorrectly. Everyone seemed to want me to give the ballback to the idiot that stood out-of-bounds and let the ball hit him.

Where's the love... I mean consistency, brother?

You should have gotten the call correct, for my sake and that of your fellow officials. :D

It sounds like you did fine Junker. As I understand the situation, the official right next to the ball made a call. You did not see enough to determine the accuracy of the call. After the fact, the other official describes what happened and the two of you realizes the call was screwed up.

Coaches yell alot. Don't stop the game everytime.
Each posession is potentially worth 2 or 3 points (without a foul). If you wouldn't stop the game with 6 minutes left in the first half to debate a call, don't stop the game for the same call with 6 seconds left.

Dan_ref as a coach, if you don't let the game get to overtime because of your frustration, you have taken the game away from 6th graders. How stupid is that! It is a game the girls had a chance to win and did because their coach was smarter than that.

Sam, I think the game was already taken away by the guys who let an obviously bad OOB call stand.

"Sam, I think the game was already taken away by the guys who let an obviously bad OOB call stand."


Dan-ref, The game couldn't have been taken away. They won.

Correct me if I am wrong, Junker did not make the call and was no where near the call to judge right or wrong. All he knows is that coach B doesn't like the call. L Official
learns later in discussion with Junker, "Oops I pooch screwed", the call.
"That is the end of the part to correct." ;)

You can't stop the game everytime a coach yells. Maybe it is easier to look at like this. All errors are not correctable. The only fix is to get it right the first time, through training, experience, and more experience.

Who eventually won is irrelevant. Coach B's team had a possession stolen from them. That's all that matters.

Where does it say Coach B was yelling?

If getting it right the first time is the only way to do this why does the ncaa make their best trained & experienced officials use a monitor to fix calls?

Dan-ref,
Preface:
I don't have an NCAA book here, but I will type now and verify later.
End of Preface

NCAA doesn't allow for officials to determine posession via the monitor. Only whether a shot was released before the horn sounded at the end of a half or game.

Stick to your quote, you said the game was taken away.

The game is not interupted each time the opposing teams or coaches both think the ball should be theirs or that a foul was missed. Officials miss calls sometimes. Coaches and players have to live with it.
With training and experience officials make less mistakes but still do mistakes. The problem is you don't when those mistakes occur. You don't stop the game each time a whistle blows and check for accuracy.

I thought I'd better jump in and clarify. When the play happened, the only person I knew was upset was the coach. That is exactly why I didn't stop the game to talk to him. I was watching my area and had no idea the ball had hit the girl who was oob. My partner had been solid all day and he was set up to administer the inbound so I didn't think there was any problem . It was only afterward, on the way to the scorers table that I talked to my partner and found out what the coach was upset about. Between the end of the period and the overtime, I explained to the coach that I couldn't just stop the game to go over and see what he was yelling about (he was yelling). Under the circumstances, I think we handled it the only way we could. If we did meet with the coach and reverse our call, all H-E_DOUBLHOCKEYSTICKS is going to break our with the other coach and the other team's fans.

There's a lot more than this one case that can be checked at a monitor but this is irrelevant. What is relevant is the ncaa acknowldges that we cannot be perfect and has a mechanism to help. Which is counter to your argument that we get 1 shot and need to live with our mistakes forever.

Anyway, I think I made my point, we don't have to agree.

Fair enough. And the same for my point.

Wht will all %$^^& break loose with the other team's coach and fans any more than Coach B an their fans should have over an obiously a bad call.

If I had been a coach and there was an obvious bad call. (I want to reiterate this in my opinion was not a judgement call but a rules interpretation question) and I asked or questioned how he could give ball back and I was ignoredas mentioned in an earlier post you'd have had to throw a T.

Getting it right can never be wrong.

I am not saying that we have to listen to a coach everytime, but in this case you just had a call, Coach is questioning it, it is a tie with time running out. Why not blow your whistle and run in and ask your partner what happened? Ask for a simple explanantion so you know what happened so you can explain it. My heck the game is on the line. I would probably would not do this with 6:55 left in the first but I certainly would in a tie game at the end.

It sounds like it was a press situation. where were you? You should have had a clue about what was going on. This is game management and court awareness. I may not have seen the exact details but i would think you had a ide of what happened. My two cents.

I'm not advocating getting the call wrong--but this doesn't sound to me like a situation where junker should have stopped the game just because coach B wasn't happy.

Obviously getting the call right the first time is the ideal situation, but officials errors are a part of the game. Players & coaches aren't perfect...neither are the stripes.

In the NCAA there are many other pressures that demand that replay be used to "get it right", primarily all the TV cameras that are going to replay over and over any officiating error &/or the great god $$$$$ which rules the NCAA.

This was not a press situation (sorry I didn't include that detail), we were on A's baseline. Even in a press situation, why would I be looking at the inbounder with my partner right there? The only information I had was Coach B yelling that he wanted to talk to me. It was my opinion that if we had talked to the coach and then changed our call, the other team could take that as the coach complaining and "working" us to get a call. Then in overtime we would have one coach and group of fans that knew we blew a call and the other coach and group of fans that think they can complain and get us to change our mind.

I understand the situation--it seems that your real question is, "should you have stopped the game to find out what coach B was yelling about?"

IMO, from what you have told me, you did fine. However, if you're worried about people being upset with you--would you rather have a group of people mad at you because they thought you "caved" to a coach by changing the call the a call you KNOW is right or would you rather have a group of people mad at you for sticking by a call that you KNOW was wrong? Seems to me like it's best to get it right, but in the heat of battle, we can't always get things perfect!

Thanks for the thoughts. You are correct in that I was second guessing talking to the coach, but with the information I had at the time, I'm pretty comfortable with our actions. The fact that someone would be mad at me didn't enter into it, I really didn't have any idea what he would want me to come across the floor to talk about, but I did know I wasn't going to go as my partner was actually in the motion of handing the ball to the inbounder. Besides, I'm a referee and teacher. Someone's always mad at me about something. Thanks again.

Emotional 6th Grade Girls.....
 

I certainly can understand your dilemma, Junker....and you say that your partner was in the process of "handing the ball" to A for throw-in. You don't say whether the ball was "actually" in the hands of A....but if not, and Coach B is challenging your partner's call.....prior to A having the ball.....hit your whistle....respond to Coach B's concern....if it merits "rectifying a possible error", fix it....if not, charge Coach B a time out.

Once A has possession of the ball, I cannot recognize Coach B's request.

[Edited by imaref on Nov 10th, 2004 at 11:02 PM]

Thanks for thickening the plot. Coach B was out of timeouts of course. Otherwise that would have been a course of action. My partner had not actually handed the ball to the inbounder, but he was in the motion of handing it off when I saw the coach trying to get my attention.

No problemo!
 

In light of the fact that your partner had not yet given A the ball, hit the whistle to stop play....check out what Coach B has to say and make the correction. No time out charged and you and your partner "get it right!"

Of course, if Coach B is wrong and it costs him a time out with none left....piece of cake. Technical foul....A shoots free throws....ball out of bounds division line throw in by A and A will probably stall time out to end of game getting the win. You and your partner are "blackballed" by Coach B...never, ever to work 6th grade girls basketball games anymore!

Time to move on!

wl

correctable error????
 

Correctable error me if I am wrong, but I didn't think this would be a correctable error situation in which you would charge the team a timeout. If the ball was inbounded it would just be considered an error on the part of the official. Correct me if I am wrong, which I have been many times before.

This does not fall into the correctable error category. First, it's not an error until the ref gives the ball to the thrower. Second, once it becomes an error, it's no longer correctable. Play on.

I know I'm not going to run over to my partner every time there's an OOB play I didn't see clearly to ensure he's enforcing the rules correctly.
If B coach is chirping, I'm going to assume he saw something different than my partner (given his worse angle, I'm not trusting his vision on this play), and I'm going to trust my partner to apply the rule correctly. If he's handing the ball to A1 as Bcoach is chirping, I'm not going to stop play because I have no indication that my partner was wrong.

It never was, officially, a "Correctable Error" as defined by the book. It is, however, a fixable mistake until the ball is inbounded.

But what imaref was saying was to describe a general procedure, for any situation where the non-administering official thinks his partner may have goofed. He wasn't saying it was correctable, which it isn't. Just that he'd approach any such situation in a certain way.

Thanks for bailing me out Rainmaker!
 

Just a game management thing! 'Nuff said.

Thanks again.

wl