fighting and leaving bench area?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

So. . . completely different example. . .

A1, A2 and B1 all engage in a fight on the court. B6 comes off B's bench but doesn't participate.

In the "player" category, Team A gets one more technical than Team B. In the "bench personnel" category, Team B has one more technical than Team A.

Just for clarity, no FTs are shot in this scenario? Or do the fouls only offset across categories for "bench personnel who fight" and "bench personnel who don't fight"?

The case you cite only offsets the fouls between the bench personnel.

No Throws. Note that it's the throws that offset, not the fouls.

Take this case:
A1, A2, B2 all fight. B6, B7, B8 and B9 all leave the bench but don't particiapte.

Players: 2 Fouls on A, 1 Foul on B, Two throws for B.
Bench: 0 Fouls on A, 4 fouls on B, Two throws for A.

Result: 2 fouls on A, 5 Fouls on B, no Thorws, use the arrow.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

No Throws. Note that it's the throws that offset, not the fouls.

Take this case:
A1, A2, B2 all fight. B6, B7, B8 and B9 all leave the bench but don't particiapte.

Players: 2 Fouls on A, 1 Foul on B, Two throws for B.
Bench: 0 Fouls on A, 4 fouls on B, Two throws for A.

Result: 2 fouls on A, 5 Fouls on B, no Thorws, use the arrow.

Bob, While you have certainly shown me that the T's can offset for people from different categories which I set up, (specifically 2 and 3), I'm not convinced that you are ruling correctly on either Chuck's or your own example above, in which you offset the T's from my category 1 with those from either 2 or 3. This seems to be a stretch at best.
In 6.4.3 Sit A the T's on the bench personnel are considered simultaneous and therefore offset, even though one fought and the other did not. The fighters T's offset because it is a flagrant double personal foul.
The question is to cancel or not to cancel if category 1 is uneven and so is 2 or 3.
In both the example Chuck provides and your own that is the case. I don't believe that we can justify cancelling the resulting FTs that each team is due in either of these cases because I can't see any of the T's by players being considered simultaneous with the T's by the bench personnel.
It would seem to me that the players fighting would have to occur first, otherwise why are people leaving the benches?

Just to clarify my position in both your scenario and Chuck's, I would award Team B 2FTs, then award Team A 2FTs and the ball.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 28th, 2004 at 09:40 AM]

[bob jenkins]

IMO, a single fight is all "approximately at the same time" -- so all the fouls are simultaneous.

[OldCoachNewRef]

Take this case:
A1, A2, B2 all fight. B6, B7, B8 and B9 all leave the bench but don't particiapte.

Players: 2 Fouls on A, 1 Foul on B, Two throws for B.
Bench: 0 Fouls on A, 4 fouls on B, Two throws for A.

Result: 2 fouls on A, 5 Fouls on B, no Thorws, use the arrow.

------------------------------------------------------
OK, now I'm confused again. How many team fouls that count towards the bonus are there in the above scenerio?

Thanks

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
Take this case:
A1, A2, B2 all fight. B6, B7, B8 and B9 all leave the bench but don't particiapte.

Players: 2 Fouls on A, 1 Foul on B, Two throws for B.
Bench: 0 Fouls on A, 4 fouls on B, Two throws for A.

Result: 2 fouls on A, 5 Fouls on B, no Thorws, use the arrow.

------------------------------------------------------
OK, now I'm confused again. How many team fouls that count towards the bonus are there in the above scenerio?

Thanks

2 on A and 5 on B -- all the fouls (except, of course, any indirect Ts on the coach) count toward the team total

[tjones1]

Fight is occuring. A2 & A3 are on the bench. You see A3 run onto the court. A2 is right behind him however he grabs A3 and takes him back to the bench. Would you let A2 off the hook and eject A3?