coach; 4, 5, 6, 7
me; why do you want a 3 seconds in the lane call but start your count at 4? besides, there was 3 shots taken while you were counting.
coach; yea, but he's still in there.
me; um, lol, um, i'll work harder coach.

How about pivoting when there is no pivot foot -- like after a hop-step?

Or how about, when the player has control of the ball while lying on the floor, but can't dribble -- puts it on the floor, stands up and picks up the ball?

Hop step?

I used this new-fangled google thing to see just whatinthehell you might mean by hop step and what a hop step might have to do with basketball.

Any of these close?

http://e-net.kir.jp/hsje/
http://www.macmillan-caribbean.com/b...hopstepjum.htm
http://www.mikan.sakura.ne.jp/~eejump/
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dicti...-step-and-jump
http://www.crump.demon.co.uk/hhb/

Chuck,
I found it interesting that you noted that the player lying on the floor in your example no longer has the right to dribble.
This was a good thought as I believe that the rules committee didn't bother to consider this. Would the action of placing the ball on the floor and letting go of it, then being the first to touch it again constitue a dribble? It certainly seems to meet the definition provided in 4-15-1.
Yet the rules committee definitely does not consider this a dribble. Here's the proof.
Obviously, you are aware of the following:
Case Book play 4.43.5 Situation B describes a player who dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. It then goes on to say, "It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball."
The writing of this Case Book play implies that the placing of the ball on the floor is not a dribble, since traveling is the violation cited and we know that a player CANNOT travel during a dribble. (4-15-4 Note 1)
But since one must have player control in order to travel (4-43), apparently the player is considered to be in control of the ball during the placing on the floor.
Yet a dribble is "ball movement caused by a player in control." So why isn't this a dribble? Anyone confused yet?

In my opinion under the current logic of the rules there are only two ways to understand this play. 1) The player does not have control when placing the ball down on the floor. It is considered to be a loose ball. Only team control exists. But then this wouldn't be a travel. 2) The action is a dribble. The player then couldn't possibly travel.

However, the NFHS chooses to create a third option. They say that player control exists, but the action is not a dribble. So it is a travel.
Yet again the NFHS interp doesn't make sense.

I believe that this play should be legal for either of the two reasons listed above.

PS If the placing of the ball on the floor were to be considered a dribble, and the player on the floor in possession had already dribbled, then undertaking this action would simply constitute a double dribble violation.

PPS If the player were standing and placed the ball on the floor, released it, then bent over and picked it up again, would this constitute a dribble?
I think that the vast majority of us would say yes.
4-15-4 Note 3 only deals with holding the ball and not releasing it.

I also find it quite appropriate that my above post is in the thread entitled Stupid Arguments, since that is what I consider the NFHS to making in ruling this play a travel.

I have to run to class, so I don't have time to look thru the links you provided (tho I'm sure they're fascinating!). "Hop-stop" is my way of indicating the type of jump-stop that results in not having a pivot foot. I mis-typed it. It should be hop-stop. I'm tired of the discussion where somebody says "jump stop" and everybody else immediately goes "well, there are two kinds of jump-stop". That's stupid. If you don't have a pivot after the move, I'm now calling that a hop-stop.

I think you called it "Bob". :)

That's the problem with "unauthorized mechanics".

Not even the guy using them is sure what he means.

Not true! I'm sure what I meant. I'm just not sure what I said. :D

I found this thread while poking through some old threads while wearing some old threads. I hope you folk don't mind that I revived it.

The best (worst?) argument I ever had was:

"I did it with my butt!"

A player in a men's league game thought he could push another player off the court as long as he used his backside! He came up with that argument after I gave him a friendly warning and then called three fouls on him for the same act.

I once had a coach giving the old, "Call it both ways," thing. First half ended and he was waiting by the door to the dressing room, the one we needed to go through, so we walked to the table to get our jackets and double checked the book. 14 fouls to 8, in HIS favor.

He finally goes in, so we do too. 3 minute mark we enter, he is right outside the door. I said,"Check the book coach," and just walked away.

We never heard a peep out of him the rest of the game.