Hey,

I am curious as to how many states use three man mechanics?
If your state recently converted to 3 man how did it go converting over to it? Did your state cut the pay per game?

Our state is implementing 3 man mechanics at the state tournament level this year which means that we are now going to it during the regular season. I am excited about it but also have many reservations about how it is to be implemented. The pay per game for 2 man is now approximately $45 per game and will be $33 per game for 3 man. Some districts are also assumming that because of 3 man mechanics, a 3 man crew can now work the JV and Varsity game, back to back. Any thoughts, ideas, experiences, commnents, ideas?

[Edited by WAZebra on Oct 21st, 2004 at 02:33 PM]

We did not see any difference in the pay for 3 man vs 2 man.
One varsity game can range from $55.00 to $70.00 depending if you are going class A or class AA

Only required for playoffs.
 

All playoff games are 3 Person in my state.

Each conference (or school) can decide on their own if they want to use 3 officials. The state has no real say in what they do during the regular season. But it makes since to use 3 Person crews for all varsity games since that is all they will see when it really counts.

The pay is also all over the place. I have been paid as high as $60 for one game, all the way down to $40 over my career.

Peace

MA is going to introduce 3-whistle mechanics for the finals and semi-finals of our state tournament beginning this winter. We have no idea if/when it will be introduced for the regular season. We have no idea of what the pay will be.

in our association We get $60 for 2 man this year and $50 for 3 man...it is up to each district what games they want 3 man...they are asked to schedule 2 games with 3 man and all the others can be 2 man..but all playoffs are 3 man....at $45 a game...state mandated... as for jv and varsity games...it is done when it's not going to be a very good game....but usually when it's 2 pretty good teams they try to shy away from it unless absolutely necessary.. which is a lot due to our lack of officials

Ok WAZebra - you live in Southwest Washington, and are a teacher....hmmm, give me a few clues: where in SW WA? What district do you teach in, etc??? I live in Vancouver and teach for Battle Ground Schools...

In San Diego, CA 3 person is used at some tournaments and for playoffs, from the semi-final round and at all rounds of the state tournament. Our varsity game fees are $60. For 3 person, they are $50. Certain high-level games during league play will have 3 person crews if both sides agree to it.

former WA State official
 

I officiated in Washington the past several years in the southeast part of the state, where we were doing 3 man. Now due to the nature of our assocation and the leagues we catered to, one three man crew was assigned to two varsity games- the boys and girls played back to back. Which was pretty much the only way to do 3 man in our association.

Our assocation required us to register for both boys and girls if we wanted varsity games. We also had to decide if we wanted to be evaluated for either boys or girls, for the purpose of assigning playoffs. (In Washington you are required to pay dues for both boys basketball and girls basketball to the state, for those that may not know.)

Our pay did drop, and yes the quality of officiating dropped in the second game especially towards the end. Which were two of the biggest complaints I had.

Not to mention there were problems adjusting from the variations between the boys games and the girls games in washington.


We also did not receive any on court training, so there were often rotation problems- which looked horrible. Moral of the story- work as many scrimmages, have some clnics. If we would have been more prepared it would have been a much smoother transition. I'll be curious to hear how it goes on the home front.

I am so glad we do not have to do that Boy/Girl varsity thing here. I hate those type of assignments. :(

Peace

Re: former WA State official
 

GregR072,

How did officiating quality drop in the second game? I have found that back-to-back 3-person games isn't that taxing physically.

Being a ref who does both boys and girls in Washington, the rules differences are very minor. What were the adjustment problems?

Z

In GA, our association does only 3 man at the high school level. We always work a girls game followed by a boys game. Each game pays $38. Some high schools (but not ones assigned to our association) do use 2 man. That pays $45/game.

All JV and MS games pay $31.50 and are all 2 man.

For the past 2 years in northern VA, we have used 3-whistle on all varsity games. We also have several rec leagues that use 3-whistle. We have 1 assignor for scholastic and 1 for rec. HS varsity officials work boys and girls (just depends on what is assigned) and most nights we have a F/JV/V triple-header. It's rare that we have a BV/GV double-header. I prefer 3-whistle games and some nights I might do a freshman game at one school and then a varsity game at another school (we have about 75 HS in this area), and other nights I might have a F/JV schedule.

It took a while to convince some of the districts/regions to go to 3-whistle, but it seems to be working fine. We have at least one 3-whistle clinic each year and you can't work a playoff game above the district level unless you have attended the clinic.

Re: Re: former WA State official
 

I personally felt that at times we lost focus in the second game, especially when the first game may have been very intense, and the 2nd game was sloppy, or a blow out. I had evaluators tell me this as well. I do agree with you that back to back 3-person games is not that taxing physically though. I just think we could have done a better job.


The rule differences were more of a nit-picking thing on my part. Every time in a girls game I'd start the 10 second count in the backcourt out of habit. Of course I always stopped, but it was an adjustment. Not that big of deal but a little thing that can make a difference.

Re: Re: Re: Re: former WA State official
 

Our state uses a shot clock for girls basketball which makes for a few minor differences.

Z

Three man mechanics need to be introduced before you get to the state tournament series. We saw this in Illinois when they made the switch to three man. It is an adjustment for the officials and the games aren't called as clean as if they would have been had they been in the same situation they were used to during the season. Three man is better but it takes some adjustments.

[Edited by flsh224 on Oct 22nd, 2004 at 06:47 PM]

I would like to see it work that way as well, but it's not going to happen. What probably will happen is that the final two rounds will be officiated by college officials. That's just my guess, but it seems pretty obvious.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this sentence.

It isn't fair for those High School kids to play the biggest games of their year with officials used to working college games because whether we like it or not college is different.

True, it's harder to officiate. I think the college officials can adjust, since they also work a specified number of HS games during the season in order to be eligible for playoff assignments.

If it's unfair at all -- and I'm not sure it is -- it's unfair to HS officials who work a full season at the HS level. It makes very little difference to the kids IMO.

Nevada went to 3-man in 1997. I wasn't here then, so I don't know exactly what the pay was then. I do know that 3-man was slightly below 2-man. The earliest that I have figures for is 1999. At the Varsity level 2-man paid $50.75 and 3-man was $41.25 per official.
Last season the rates were $55 and $45 respectively.
Officials here often work a jv or a freshman game before the varsity game, but those games are 2-man and pay $40 per official.

I just found out today that back in 1997 when the 4A went to 3-man the pay scale dropped. The agreement made with the schools was that the officials would split the previous fee three ways instead of two. (Work 3 for the price of 2.)
I learned this because at our meeting today we were told that 3-man is being added at the 3A level this year. Again, with the deal that the pay will be 3 for the price of 2 for the first year, just as was done with the 4A.
Specifically, that means $55 x 2 = $110, $110 / 3 = $36.67

Since we pay $40 for freshmen and jv games, we will now be paying each official who comes in for the Varsity game less than those who work the preceding jv game. I think this is bizarre and that the officials are getting shafted.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 25th, 2004 at 06:17 AM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: former WA State official
 

Was it not you that said that everyone should follow NF rules to the letter? Is that a NF experimental rule or are you guys doing that on your own? :D

Peace

Actually, that was attributed to me. Even though that is not what I said.

In fact, there is no state adoption option for a shot clock. They are simply doing it on their own along with six other states that use it (CA, MD, MA, etc.). Also, I believe that the NFHS took away their seats on the rules committee because of it. Thus these state associations cannot submit possible rules changes nor can they vote on the proposals of others.

Others can probably provide the other states that use the shot clock.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 23rd, 2004 at 06:55 AM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: former WA State official
 

Rut,

I said that individual interpreter's should not alter NFHS rules and mechanics just because they think they know better or because they are trying to apply college mechanics to a high school game. But that isn't just my opinion, the NFHS has sent out bulletins as well stating that no person has the right to change NFHS mechanics or rules. It is a constant source of frustration for them.

But since you asked about the shot clock (which is a state adoption rather than an individual adoption)..... I wish our state did not use a shot clock for girls basketball since it is not approved by NFHS. In fact, there was a motion made to remove the shot clock from girls basketball in our state this year. From what I understand, the motion would have passed except that our state got wind that the NFHS might be approving a shot clock for girls and boys basketball in the next couple of years. Now I hear that the boys teams in our state are excited about getting to implement a shot clock as well in the next couple of years if that info is true.

Z
Z

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: former WA State official
 

What makes you think that what I have talked about was based on one person? I am sure there are many conversations with many different people before specific interpretations were given. And when the NF gives officials the "option" to do something, I am sure it is within their right to decide as a state that everyone is going to do it "one way" or they will be downgraded. I find nothing wrong with that. I am sure the people at the NF does not either.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: former WA State official
 

<b>
If it's written as optional than have at it. All I know is that the NFHS has sent out bulletins asking people to not make up their own interps. It happens a lot. I also know that the NFHS has been frustrated at times with college officials who have decided that their college mechanics or calling philosophies are superior and have used their "power" to implement some of them at their local HS level. That's all.

Z
</b>

Here is the basic problem I have with your argument.
 

None of what we were talking about had anything to do with a college mechanic or a college philosophy. We were talking about a particular mechanic that was subscribed by a State Interpreter within the bounds of the NF. The NF gave and option, our State Clinician said we are going to take away the option for one type of situation.

I really do not know what you are talking about when you say "college calling philosophy?" I do not know of any philosophy that is much different at the college level than at the HS level. I know when I call the game basically the same at the HS level as I do with the college level. The major difference is the talent of the players. Some players can do things at the college level they will never accomplish at the HS level. But I am not sure what the NF has to do with that? As a matter of fact I do not learn that much about officiating by reading their specific literature. When I read Referee Magazine (or this site :D), go to camps, there is very little in the NF literature that tells me what to do in a bunch of situations. The NF mechanics books do very little to explain philosophy or many specific mechanics. The Referee Magazine Basketball Guide does a much better job explaining mechanics in the NF than their own book. If the NF did a decent job, there would be no reason for camps and books on their mechanics.

Peace

Re: Here is the basic problem I have with your argument.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

Quote:

I really do not know what you are talking about when you say "college calling philosophy?" I do not know of any philosophy that is much different at the college level than at the HS level. Peace

You can't be so ignorant as to not know there are differences in philosophy. Sportsmanship (bench decorum for one), degree of adv/dis, amount of physical play allowed etc. etc. Some of the rules differences reflect the different philosophies. You haven't ever noticed that? Ever?

Z

Here, have one of these...what did I miss so far...?

http://www.beercollections.com/Brewe...s/IM621817.gif

Re: Re: Here is the basic problem I have with your argument.
 

Z,

Maybe those differences are wide in your area. Here they teach officiating, not a "college philosophy" and then a totally different philosophy for HS games. The better officials get asked to work college and the weaker officials might just stay at the HS level. There are also a few assignors that assign both HS and college conferences and they do not ask their officials to change for each side drastically. I really have no idea what you mean be a "college philosophy" other than the use of mechanics and possibly positioning. But calling the game is exactly the same. You better call and advantage/disadvantage or you will not be given the opportunity to call the bigger games or tournaments. Some of our best officials that work college ball at the D1 level work some of the best HS games and tournaments and do not change a thing. Not sure what the heck you are talking about.

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_28_113.gif' alt='Confused' border=0></a>

Peace

It's not drastic, it's subtle... and lost on some. The officials in your area who do D-1 and the best high school games have mastered the subtle differences. I don't have time to give you a dissertation on all the differences. Bench decorum is an obvious one. Time (past time) for me to move on.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Oct 25th, 2004 at 12:11 AM]

I guess.
 

Not sure what you are talking about. This year alone in the NCAA Rulebook there is POE on Bench Decorum. Many of the very same POEs in college basketball are the exact same in NF Basketball. Rough play is always a POE in both codes and they many times address the very same issues year in and year out. The NCAA Committee goes into more detail and seems to be more descriptive as to what they want then the NF in my opinion. So I guess I am confused as to what you are talking about. Maybe the college officials in your area take a different approach then they do out here?

Peace