3 Man Officiating!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by flsh224
Three man mechanics need to be introduced before you get to the state tournament series.

I would like to see it work that way as well, but it's not going to happen. What probably will happen is that the final two rounds will be officiated by college officials. That's just my guess, but it seems pretty obvious.

It is an adjustment for the officials and the games are called as clean as if they would have had the situation they were used to during the season.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand this sentence.

[flsh224]

It isn't fair for those High School kids to play the biggest games of their year with officials used to working college games because whether we like it or not college is different.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by flsh224
whether we like it or not college is different.

True, it's harder to officiate. I think the college officials can adjust, since they also work a specified number of HS games during the season in order to be eligible for playoff assignments.

If it's unfair at all -- and I'm not sure it is -- it's unfair to HS officials who work a full season at the HS level. It makes very little difference to the kids IMO.

[Nevadaref]

Nevada went to 3-man in 1997. I wasn't here then, so I don't know exactly what the pay was then. I do know that 3-man was slightly below 2-man. The earliest that I have figures for is 1999. At the Varsity level 2-man paid $50.75 and 3-man was $41.25 per official.
Last season the rates were $55 and $45 respectively.
Officials here often work a jv or a freshman game before the varsity game, but those games are 2-man and pay $40 per official.

I just found out today that back in 1997 when the 4A went to 3-man the pay scale dropped. The agreement made with the schools was that the officials would split the previous fee three ways instead of two. (Work 3 for the price of 2.)
I learned this because at our meeting today we were told that 3-man is being added at the 3A level this year. Again, with the deal that the pay will be 3 for the price of 2 for the first year, just as was done with the 4A.
Specifically, that means $55 x 2 = $110, $110 / 3 = $36.67

Since we pay $40 for freshmen and jv games, we will now be paying each official who comes in for the Varsity game less than those who work the preceding jv game. I think this is bizarre and that the officials are getting shafted.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 25th, 2004 at 06:17 AM]

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Our state uses a shot clock for girls basketball which makes for a few minor differences.

Z

Was it not you that said that everyone should follow NF rules to the letter? Is that a NF experimental rule or are you guys doing that on your own?

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Was it not you that said that everyone should follow NF rules to the letter? Is that a NF experimental rule or are you guys doing that on your own?

Peace

Actually, that was attributed to me. Even though that is not what I said.

In fact, there is no state adoption option for a shot clock. They are simply doing it on their own along with six other states that use it (CA, MD, MA, etc.). Also, I believe that the NFHS took away their seats on the rules committee because of it. Thus these state associations cannot submit possible rules changes nor can they vote on the proposals of others.

Others can probably provide the other states that use the shot clock.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 23rd, 2004 at 06:55 AM]

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Was it not you that said that everyone should follow NF rules to the letter? Is that a NF experimental rule or are you guys doing that on your own?

Peace

Rut,

I said that individual interpreter's should not alter NFHS rules and mechanics just because they think they know better or because they are trying to apply college mechanics to a high school game. But that isn't just my opinion, the NFHS has sent out bulletins as well stating that no person has the right to change NFHS mechanics or rules. It is a constant source of frustration for them.

But since you asked about the shot clock (which is a state adoption rather than an individual adoption)..... I wish our state did not use a shot clock for girls basketball since it is not approved by NFHS. In fact, there was a motion made to remove the shot clock from girls basketball in our state this year. From what I understand, the motion would have passed except that our state got wind that the NFHS might be approving a shot clock for girls and boys basketball in the next couple of years. Now I hear that the boys teams in our state are excited about getting to implement a shot clock as well in the next couple of years if that info is true.

Z
Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Rut,

I said that individual interpreter's should not alter NFHS rules and mechanics just because they think they know better or because they are trying to apply college mechanics to a high school game. But that isn't just my opinion, the NFHS has sent out bulletins as well stating that no person has the right to change NFHS mechanics or rules. It is a constant source of frustration for them.

What makes you think that what I have talked about was based on one person? I am sure there are many conversations with many different people before specific interpretations were given. And when the NF gives officials the "option" to do something, I am sure it is within their right to decide as a state that everyone is going to do it "one way" or they will be downgraded. I find nothing wrong with that. I am sure the people at the NF does not either.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge
And when the NF gives officials the "option" to do something, I am sure it is within their right to decide as a state that everyone is going to do it "one way" or they will be downgraded. I find nothing wrong with that. I am sure the people at the NF does not either.

Peace

If it's written as optional than have at it. All I know is that the NFHS has sent out bulletins asking people to not make up their own interps. It happens a lot. I also know that the NFHS has been frustrated at times with college officials who have decided that their college mechanics or calling philosophies are superior and have used their "power" to implement some of them at their local HS level. That's all.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman

If it's written as optional than have at it. All I know is that the NFHS has sent out bulletins asking people to not make up their own interps. It happens a lot. I also know that the NFHS has been frustrated at times with college officials who have decided that their college mechanics or calling philosophies are superior and have used their "power" to implement some of them at their local HS level. That's all.

Z

None of what we were talking about had anything to do with a college mechanic or a college philosophy. We were talking about a particular mechanic that was subscribed by a State Interpreter within the bounds of the NF. The NF gave and option, our State Clinician said we are going to take away the option for one type of situation.

I really do not know what you are talking about when you say "college calling philosophy?" I do not know of any philosophy that is much different at the college level than at the HS level. I know when I call the game basically the same at the HS level as I do with the college level. The major difference is the talent of the players. Some players can do things at the college level they will never accomplish at the HS level. But I am not sure what the NF has to do with that? As a matter of fact I do not learn that much about officiating by reading their specific literature. When I read Referee Magazine (or this site ), go to camps, there is very little in the NF literature that tells me what to do in a bunch of situations. The NF mechanics books do very little to explain philosophy or many specific mechanics. The Referee Magazine Basketball Guide does a much better job explaining mechanics in the NF than their own book. If the NF did a decent job, there would be no reason for camps and books on their mechanics.

Peace

[zebraman]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

I really do not know what you are talking about when you say "college calling philosophy?" I do not know of any philosophy that is much different at the college level than at the HS level.

Peace

You can't be so ignorant as to not know there are differences in philosophy. Sportsmanship (bench decorum for one), degree of adv/dis, amount of physical play allowed etc. etc. Some of the rules differences reflect the different philosophies. You haven't ever noticed that? Ever?

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Here, have one of these...what did I miss so far...?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman


You can't be so ignorant as to not know there are differences in philosophy. Sportsmanship (bench decorum for one), degree of adv/dis, amount of physical play allowed etc. etc. Some of the rules differences reflect the different philosophies. You haven't ever noticed that? Ever?

Z

Z,

Maybe those differences are wide in your area. Here they teach officiating, not a "college philosophy" and then a totally different philosophy for HS games. The better officials get asked to work college and the weaker officials might just stay at the HS level. There are also a few assignors that assign both HS and college conferences and they do not ask their officials to change for each side drastically. I really have no idea what you mean be a "college philosophy" other than the use of mechanics and possibly positioning. But calling the game is exactly the same. You better call and advantage/disadvantage or you will not be given the opportunity to call the bigger games or tournaments. Some of our best officials that work college ball at the D1 level work some of the best HS games and tournaments and do not change a thing. Not sure what the heck you are talking about.



Peace

[zebraman]

It's not drastic, it's subtle... and lost on some. The officials in your area who do D-1 and the best high school games have mastered the subtle differences. I don't have time to give you a dissertation on all the differences. Bench decorum is an obvious one. Time (past time) for me to move on.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Oct 25th, 2004 at 12:11 AM]