I'm observing a game Saturday afternoon for our rating committee and the following occurs. A leads B 53-51 three minutes to go. A1 (A's best player) picks up his fifth foul, B1 to shoot 1 and 1. Official 1 comes to the table reports the foul and tells the team A coach that A1 has 5 fouls. A1 walks over and stands by the team A bench but is still on the floor. For some reason, official 1 doesn't ask for a 30 sec. clock but instead proceeds to take his position as trail to shoot the free throws. No sub in the game. Official 2 proceeds to announce the 1 and 1 and bounces the ball to B1. Official 1 does nothing. B1 shoots the first free throw and misses. A2 rebounds and throws the ball to A1 who drives in, is fouled by B1 but still proceeds to dunk the ball and then does a chin up on the rim. You guessed it, Official 1 calls the foul on B1 and then a "T" on A1. As he goes to the table, he is met by the team B coach who is SCREAMING that A1 fouled out on the previous play and that the dunk shouldn't count and that his player (B1) should get to re-attempt his 1 and 1 and that there should be a "T" for having an illegal player in the game. The official tells Team B coach to "sit down and shut up while he confers with his partner". The two officials get together and this is what they decide to do. They wipe out the basket by A1 and the foul by B1 (B's best player and this would have been his fifth). They rule that because the play should not have happened (i.e. a sub was not brought into the game) the ball was and remained dead after the first foul call on A1. They assess a technical foul to A1 for dunking a dead ball and a technical foul to Team A for unspotsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game. Since they don't know how much time was left when all of this started they decide not to put time back on the clock. They decide to resume by having B1 re-attempt his 1 and 1. They call B1 to the free throw line and allow him to shoot his 1 and 1 and he makes both (A-53, B-53). Team A coach (not to mention the fans and the varsity coach)is going nuts "you guys screwed up", etc. yelling profusely. Official 2 "T"s coach of Team A and tells him because of the two previous "T"s this "T" causes his ejection. After a delay in which they threaten to end the game if the Team A coach doesn't leave, the coach is led away by the AD, they shoot 6 free throws for the technicals, and needless to say, B goes on to win the game. When I tried to talk to these guys in the locker room, they adamantly defended their position so I quickly shut my mouth and left. The review I turned into the rating committee was not flattering to say the least. I know what I think they should have done but I'm interested to hear what this group thinks.

Obviously, these refs screwed up big time. Where to start? No way they should have continued play without making sure A1 was replaced. OK, they realized that eventually - lesson learned.

However, there is no provision in the rules that I could find for taking the basket away and having a "do-over". NF 10.3.2 says the technical shall be assessed to a player if he participates after being disqualified when discovered. Case 10.3.2note also does not mention anything about wiping off any play that occurred while the disqualified player was participating.

Their contention that is nonsense. What you had was bench personnel (A1 became that when his coach was notified he was disqualified - NF 4.34.3) participating illegally during a live ball. The ball became live when the official put it at the disposal of the free throw shooter.

If one of the officials had blown his whistle while A1 was driving, the play would have stopped there. But since the disqualification violation wasn't "discovered" until after the basket, it counts. Since this is also an indirect on the coach, the eventual count to three Ts on him was correct.

Not much else was, however.

BTW - since there is no provision for cancelling the basket, there is no erroneous score. Therefore this does not come under the correctable error rule.

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Jan 29th, 2001 at 12:29 PM]

Wow. This is wrong on so many levels, that it must have been painful to watch.

I am not sure what level these guys were working (I assume Varsity since it was being rated), but they need to crack the rule book more often.

1st, This would not have happened in my game because we would go nowhere, until A1 is off the floor. Leaving him out is inexcusable, and flat out should not have happened. If it does it is OUR fault, no one else's.

2nd, Since he was out, the dunk counts, the foul counts, and the T counts (the sub should attempt the 1 free throw). I don't remember seeing any rule that says an illegal player makes the entire sequence disappear. It was very poor to T the dunk, then hit him for being an illegal player. Even though he is now bench personnel, they neglected to remove him. They should have sacked up, admitted the mistake and gone forward, without the T for that. Also, if their deadball theory were to fly, they would need to T B1 for fouling during a dead ball. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

3rd, why in the @#*^$ did they let the kid retry his 1 &1??? Umm, I don't think this is a correctable error.

4th, why didn't the table blow the horn, yell, wave or something. B did have a book there (again, I assume) and they should have told someone.

5th, it was an even worse decision to T the coach. He had an absolute right to be upset, they screwed the pooch. Again, they need to sack up and take their medicine. If your state is like ours, now has a suspension to deal with that is not his fault.

6th, and finally, I hate egotistical officials that will not listen to any comments or criticism (or at least blow the dust off those books to see if they got it right). I hope the state drags their butts in and suspends them, what they did was bush league, and not allowing an evaluator to comment is suicide. They don't deserve to wear stripes like the rest of us until they learn the rules, and some game management skills (telling a coach to shut up and sit down??? what is that?).

When the coach is notified that a player has fouled out, he is now bench personnel. He doesn't have to leave the floor to be bench personnel and they don't have to remove him. Obviously they screwed up by not waiting until a sibstitution was made. The two technical fouls on A1 are correct. It's debatable whether the coach should have gotten a T or not. Yeah, they screwed up royally, but we don't know what he said or did. Just because there's a major screwup doesn't give a coach the right to go crazy.

Yikes
 

I'm no referee, but I know how the game works. I'm going to have to piece your post together...

Boom. That's where things really screwed up. First of all, the referee shouldn't even have to ask for a 30 second clock - the timer should know better. (I'm a timer for my high school gym - that's required if you are going to do it.)

This is a mixed combination of faults. It's the coach's fault for not having the sub go in, the referee's fault for not counting, or paying attention to see if the sub had come in, and the table's fault for not pointing it out.

I still don't get WHY the official didn't see if the player had been replaced. Especially if there's 3 of them...

Well, since the official(s) didn't realize that A1 hadn't been replaced, this seemed like the right call at the time.

The official SHOULD touchback with the table, and not listen to the coach.

A bit blunt, but hey! What can ya do?

The one thing I disagree with is the technical foul to Team A for "unsportsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game."

That's is half way the official's fault. Team A shouldn't of gotten the technical, as it was a little bit of everyone's fault.

[quote]Since they don't know how much time was left when all of this started they decide not to put time back on the clock.[/qupte]

I'm not so sure about that. They should know [roughly] what the time was that elapsed. It was a close game, those seconds could of mattered.

I would of let him shoot again, as well.

I guess it was his third technical.

Read above.

Matthew

[Edited by OPTIPLEX2001 on Jan 29th, 2001 at 02:49 PM]

Re: Yikes
 

A timer should not do anything until the Official tells him so, not trying to be high and mighty, but the official signals to the time keeper when to start/stop game clock and when to start timing a timeout.

For example, I do not start a 30 second TO until the players are at their benches, unless there is a player who is moving at a snails pace. If you start the clock when the official walks to the table you could lose 1/2 of the time.


This is a great place to learn about rules, listen to what the others have said above, this is not a correctable error.

Re: Re: Yikes!
 

That's not the way I, or anyone else at our school operates. After I see what time-out it is (whether be 30 or full), once I see it, I punch it in, whether or not the players are there. BTW, if the timer shouldn't do anything unless the official signals him to, a lot of field goals wouldn't be shown...

Sure it is. Let him shoot again. Pretend that anything after that one play happened. Redo the whole deal, and everyone will be happy.

Matthew

If you want a replay go to volleyball.

In basketball, correctable errors are not based on judgement, but fact. And this sitch does not pass as a correctable error. Also, there is no provision for wiping out action after it occurs. It just cannot be done.

Re: Re: Yikes
 

I think what is being said in this situation is that a good timer should be aware to start the 30sec. DQ clock, or prompt the ref for a start.

Re: Re: Re: Yikes!
 

3 things -
1- We're not talking about a 30 second timeout here. When a player fouls out, the coach has 30 seconds to replace him. The timer starts the 30 seconds when the official tells him to.

2- And since we're at it, on a 30 second or full timeout, you don't start the timeout until the official tells you to do so. The timeout doesn't start until the players get to their bench. So when you start the 30 seconds or 1 minute "whether or not the players are there," you are wrong to do so.

3- The score that you put on the scoreboard doesn't mean anything. The scorebook is the official score. You should post scores based on what the scorer does, not what the official does.

Sure it is. Let him shoot again. Pretend that anything after that one play happened. Redo the whole deal, and everyone will be happy. [/QUOTE]

It doesn't work like that. We don't do things just because it makes everyone happy. If you don't understand that, then you might want to consider just reading and asking questions, rather than making comments like that. I'm not trying to be ugly, just offering a little advice.

After the initial barage by B's coach letting me know how badly we screwed up, Send both teams and coaches to their bench area(a little more tactfully than shut up and sit down) so that the crew can come together, after deciding what to do get both coaches together(away from benches and table)The conversation should go something like this.
Coaches I have made a huge error and now we have mess
to clean up. We are going to fix this by rule and neither one of you is going to be happy with this decision. After the game I will detail what has happened and send it to the state in a game report and I will make a copy available to each of you. Unsportsmanlike outbursts after the decision
will not be tolerated. All points and fouls occuring after
the FT's by B will stand additionally A1 will recieve a T for participation after being DQ and Coach A will recieve 2 indirect T's resulting from both A1's T's. Coach A you will provide me with a substitute to shoot 1 FT for A1, Coach B
B1 has fouled out you will provide me with a substitute and
a shooter for 4 FT's after which you will get the ball at the division line. You now have 30 sec to replace your players and have your teams ready to resume play.

At this time they will either comply or you are going to see one hell of a fireworks display.

Respect for the mentor/protege relationship!
 

Paul, will you be my mentor? :)

Bktballref,

You beat me to the punch. The scoreboard is there only for the convienence of the players, coaches, and fans, it doesn't mean anything. The book is the only thing that matters.

Also, rules are there for a reason, you can't not call a travel becuase no one was with in 15 feet of a player, becuase it didn't really matter if he did or not, the rule is there to be followed.

Officiating isn't about what feels right, it is about black and white(most of the time).

Re: Respect for the mentor/protege relationship!
 

I don't care if he's my mentor, I just want him as a partner! (But not if he's replacing Dave) ;)

I believe PAULK1's suggested discussion with the coaches covers all the bases. A1 became bench personnel when the coach was notified of his 5th foul, regardless of whether or not he left the court. A1 then became a player again by rule when the ball became live and he was still on the court. The foul by B1 should count, as should the dunk by A1, as should the T for hanging on the rim by A1. I dont believe the coach should have gotten three T's credited to him because the T for hangin on the rim was committed by a player, once the ball became live, not by bench personnel. He may, however, have earned his ejection by his own actions.

Obviously, the officials were the majority of the problem to begin with and they didn't help themselves by simply calling for a "do over". I hope they were written up harshly for their post-game attitude toward the evaluator and disciplined even harsher for their lack of rules knowledge.

Official 1 comes to the table reports the foul and tells the team A coach that A1 has 5 fouls. A1 walks over and stands by the team A bench but is still on the floor. For some reason, official 1 doesn't ask for a 30 sec. clock but instead proceeds to take his position as trail to shoot the free throws.

Here is mistake #1, as we all know. Actually, mistakes #1 and #2. First, he doens't ask for 30 seconds and wait for the sub. Second, he never tells the player that he has fouled out (you should do this after you tell the coach, by rule).

No sub in the game. Official 2 proceeds to announce the 1 and 1 and bounces the ball to B1. Official 1 does nothing. B1 shoots the first free throw and misses. A2 rebounds and throws the ball to A1 who drives in, is fouled by B1 but still proceeds to dunk the ball and then does a chin up on the rim. You guessed it, Official 1 calls the foul on B1 and then a "T" on A1.

Nothing wrong with this. The basket, foul on B1, and technical on A1 should all count.

As he goes to the table, he is met by the team B coach who is SCREAMING that A1 fouled out on the previous play and that the dunk shouldn't count and that his player (B1) should get to re-attempt his 1 and 1 and that there should be a "T" for having an illegal player in the game.

Do I even need to comment on this? We all should know that this coach is WAY off - none of this is correct.

The official tells Team B coach to "sit down and shut up while he confers with his partner".

Friendly officiating hint #1: When you just caused everything to get FUBAR - you shouldn't be telling anyone to shut-up.

The two officials get together and this is what they decide to do. They wipe out the basket by A1 and the foul by B1 (B's best player and this would have been his fifth).

Can't do this. The only situation in which wiping a basket and a foul is allowed by rule is after a made free-throw in which case the wrong team takes the ball out-of-bounds. There is no other situation in which you can make this ruling.

They rule that because the play should not have happened (i.e. a sub was not brought into the game) the ball was and remained dead after the first foul call on A1. They assess a technical foul to A1 for dunking a dead ball and a technical foul to Team A for unspotsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game.

It should not have happened, but they can't wipe everything off because of their mistake. They are on iffy ground concerning the second technical for a disqualified player participating. If I remember correctly the rule book says something about the player knowingly participating - in which this case, he didn't (because they never told him he fouled out).

Of course, they told the coach, but then promptly walked off. I think that the prudent and common sense thing to do here is NOT assess the technical foul (this would be the only one that was indirect against the coach, if they did call it, btw).

They decide to resume by having B1 re-attempt his 1 and 1. They call B1 to the free throw line and allow him to shoot his 1 and 1 and he makes both (A-53, B-53).

Makes no sense whatsoever. You are giving B another chance to make a free throw that they don't deserve. This is not a correctable error.

Team A coach (not to mention the fans and the varsity coach)is going nuts "you guys screwed up", etc. yelling profusely. Official 2 "T"s coach of Team A and tells him because of the two previous "T"s this "T" causes his ejection.

I get mad when I know the coach is right too, but you shouldn't throw him out for it! :)

After a delay in which they threaten to end the game if the Team A coach doesn't leave, the coach is led away by the AD,

Never, never, never make threats.

they shoot 6 free throws for the technicals, and needless to say, B goes on to win the game.

Can anyone say "cluster"?!?

When I tried to talk to these guys in the locker room, they adamantly defended their position so I quickly shut my mouth and left. The review I turned into the rating committee was not flattering to say the least.

Unbelievable... This is usually how it is though. These guys have no clue as to the rules, which is why they had to make things up as they go along.

I'm all for common-sense officiating, but if you don't have a basis (the rules) then you are unable to use common sense.

Can you imagine getting in a plane and flying it using "common sense"??? I'm sure that there are some situations that call for it, but if you don't know the nitty-gritty technical details to begin with, how can you rely on common-sense???

Re: re: re: re: Yikes!
 

E-X-A-M-P-L-E: (excuse me for being cynical, but I'm like that)

Didn't I say that already? From me:

I meant after the official tells me what it is.

However, whoever takes in the winning/losing team refers to the scoreboard. I'm not saying your wrong, because your not, but the scoreboard is even what the bookkeeper will refer to.

You don't understand me. I meant that redoing the ENTIRE play, from where the mistake was made, would be the easiest thing to do, and it would also make everyone happy. The everyone happy part is just a little bonus.

Matthew

THANK YOU!

Matthew

You are way way way wrong!
 

Let's see the bookkeeper keep the time. It's a little more than nothing now, eh?

Matthew

3 things -
1- We're not talking about a 30 second timeout here. When a player fouls out, the coach has 30 seconds to replace him. The timer starts the 30 seconds when the official tells him to.

E-X-A-M-P-L-E: (excuse me for being cynical, but I'm like that)[/quote]

When a player fouls out, the official will inform the coach and then inform the player. He will then tell the timer to let him know when 30 second expire. This also applies when a player must be replaced due to injury or an equipment violation, such as the shirt tail hanging out.

The official should tell you when to start the TO and he shouldn't do that until all players have made their way to their benches. You indicated that you started the TO clock whether or not the players were there, which would be incorrect.

Quote:

3- The score that you put on the scoreboard doesn't mean anything. The scorebook is the official score. You should post scores based on what the scorer does, not what the official does.

If you have a scorer that's referring to the scoreboard to keep the book, then the officials at that game will have a huge problem sooner or later. The scorebook is the official record of the game. It doesn't matter what score the timer puts on the scoreboard. The timer's main responsibility is to keep the clock, not the score. Obviously, the score needs to be accurate but if there's a discrepancy, the officials wil go the running score in the scorebook.

Quote:

It doesn't work like that. We don't do things just because it makes everyone happy. If you don't understand that, then you might want to consider just reading and asking questions, rather than making comments like that. I'm not trying to be ugly, just offering a little advice.

I understand you perfectly, which is why I'm trying to explain to you why you're wrong. We can't re-do the entire thing. We have rules that we have to go by when things like this happen. The rules do not allow us to ignore what happened in a situation like this, no matter how easy it may seem.

Keep reading and learning Matthew.

Another lesson that can be learned from this
case is the critical working relationship between
the scorer and timer and the officials. Always
make it a point to talk with them, not only to go
over the basics but letting them know they are an important part of the offciating crew during the game and that the only way we on the floor can have a good game is if they
do their job properly. We all have brain cramps at sometime or another so I always tell them don't let me do anything stupid out there. More than once during my years has an on the ball score or timer saved my butt. I will never be mad at a scorer or time for calling me over for something even if it is not correct as they were just tring to do what they thought was, right which is what we should expect from them.

Paul..u be the man
 

I envisioned the entire situation as I read your response.
Right on the money!
I know it was said, but, We are not working to make everyone
happy. That is an impossibility!
One observation on the original post. Either the reporting
official was in a hurry to get away from the table after
fouling out the star, in a hurry or just plain doesn't know
the rules. By the way did these guys know they were being
observed?
To the clock operator. At the risk of sounding like a tyrant, You don't do anything unless told verbally or by
use of a mechanic. And we don't signal made baskets anymore.

Except a 3 pointer.

Re: Re: Re: Yikes!
 

Here's why you have to wait until told by the official to start a timing situation:

Time-outs: Official recognizes that a Team A's request for a TO and sounds his whistle. The official then goes to the reporting area near the S/T Table and is told by the Head Coach A whether he wants a full or 30 sec. TO (at least in theory that is how that part is supposed to work). The official then announces to the Head Coach B the type of TO.
The official then announces to the Scorer: Team A TO, full/30 sec. by the Coach/Player no., and then signals the Timer to start the TO.

Disqualified Player: After the Scorer notifies the Official of a A1's disqualification, the Official notifies Head Coach A of A1's disqualification the notifies his partner of A1's disqualification, and then the Official finaly has the Timer start the 30 sec. TO.

Injured Player: The Official does not signal the Timer to start the 30 sec. TO until the injured player has been completely removed from the court. If it takes 15 minutes before the player can be removed from the court, his coach does not have to make any decision to replace him until after the player has been removed from the court.

Re: Re: re: re: re: Yikes!
 

You either don't get it or don't want to get it. One thing I have learned about officiating, the easiest thing to do, is usually not the right/legal thing to do.

BTW, I did not mean to belittle the responsibilities of the scorekeeper, obviously the score keeper and time keeper are very important to the game.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, ad infinitum.

Would you be willing to come sit in the stands for every game I run the clock/scoreboard? That way when I put points for the wrong team (usually 1x/game - when they switch @ the half) you can explain this to the fans?

Mark,
 

You have my full blown respect as a referee.

Matthew

Re: Mark,
 

Mark isn't a referee. He's a timer.

Re: Mark,
 

Which Mark? Padgett, DeNucci, Dexter?? (sorry if I spelled the names wrong)

First two are refs. Last is a wanna-be floor official who runs clock and book.

and the worst thing that has happened during my season is that i shot a 1+1 and it should have been 2 shots. (Yes, i did catch it....it was my first correctible error in 9 years!)

buy the way....as an evaluator where did you start?..and how long did the talk take after.

keep smiling
SH

Mark Dexter...
 

You aren't a referee? I really thought you were - well, I respect you as a fellow timer and scorer!

Matthew

Re: Mark Dexter...
 

Nope, I just fool lotsa people 'cause I actually read the rulebook!

I do not want to continue to beat a dead horse because I get a Charlie Brown stomach ache every time I start to read the origanal posting, but I would like to make two comments concerning this play. The first is that Brad's posting on Jan. 29th was a great point-by-point description of how it should have been handled. The second point is that there is a NFHS Casebook play that covers this situation. The NFHS 2000-2001 BASKETBALL INTERPRETATIONS SUPPLEMENT #1 (11/9/00) has a situation that covers this play. It is Situation 4. Here it is in its entirety:

SITUATION 4: A1 is fouled by B2 and is awarded two free throws. The foul is B2's fifth foul. The trail official reports the fifth foul to Team B's coach. Before a substitute is made, the lead official incorrectly permits A1 to attempt the first free throw. The trail official realizes the error and huddles with the lead official. RULING: The result of the first attempt shall stand. Team B's head coach shall be notified of B2's disqualification. Once B2 has been replaced, A1 shall attempt the second free throw. COMMENT: This is an official’s error and not a correctable error situation according to Rule 2-10. (10-6 Pen; 2-8-3; 10-5-1d)

I hope that this helps because it is the foundation for everything that Brad talked about in his Jan. 29th posting.