This year we are suppose to be learning 3 person. Our association has not adopted three person yet, but they want us ready.

I have been officiating for 10 years now, but only two person. I tried 3 person at a camp four years ago and was totally lost. I got so comfortable in two person and didin't understand very well. (I know that practice will help, but I need more.) Some of my co-officals have said that they like 3 better than 2 and it is hard to swith between the two.

Does anyone have any advice for me?

Thanks

Get as much information on it as possible.
 

it is a lot different to go back and forth between the two and three person crews, but once you learn all the things about it, it really is a lot better and you will not want to do nothing else but 3 person... Just try to watch a lot of it tv or whatever and go to as many camps as you can to learn as much as you can, ask a lot of questions..

know your primary and stay in it, trust your partner just like in 2-man. seems like it would be alot easier with the extra set of eyes but we only have 3-man on select games (usually the bigger and faster teams) so you still gotta work hard to get angles. switches will come natural with practice. here in Missouri, we're going tableside so if you call the foul, the only switch is with tableside. the good news is that if it's new to your area, nobody besides the refs really know how it should go so just have fun with it.

First of all, welcome to the forum. Second, can you be a little more specific about what you want help with? We could just point you to the officials' manual, but I'm sure that's not really what you're asking. What's troubling you, specifically? Rotations? Switches on fouls? Areas of responsibility? Positioning? Transition coverage?

If there's something that's especially problematic, let us know, and you'll get more specific advice.

The best thing I can tell you is to attend a camp. It is really hard to learn the situation on the internet. I have been working 3 Man for almost 10 years. I learn new things every single year about the system or it changes where I have to continue to get something new I did not know from the past. The more you understand 2 Person, the more I believe you will understand 3 person. Just keep in mind, the Center position was put in place to help coverage.

Like Chuck said, if you have some specific questions we will be glad to answer it. I would also suggest that you watch a lot of college basketball (Men's preferred) to get a basic understanding on top of what you might hear. You have to first understand the basics.

Peace

What's troubling you, specifically? Rotations? Switches on fouls? Areas of responsibility? Positioning? Transition coverage?


I had the most trouble with the area of responsibility. Because I am a female and young, some of the other male officials in my association feel they can over rule me. So I am less likely to make a scene and not call in a "grey" area. The other thing I am getting caught at is in two person it is clear of of the "grey" area, but in 3, the lead is suppose to be calling the fast break shooter to the basket and be the only one to make the call, or so I am told. So this is kind of the most of my concern.

That might be an issue you need to address with your association. Not sure any of us can really help you or know if that is the case. It might be that the officials you work with just do not understand what 3 Person is about

That is not ever true. What if the shooter comes from the Center's side? The Center even in half court situation has the right to watch the ball all the way to the basket. And in transition, there are really not defined areas. You have to work together to call what happens. Sometimes depending on who is where and how many players are in front of you, you might have a situation where all 3 officials could have a possible call in transition. Even the Trail depending on what players are doing what could have a call.

Peace

Ok, my next question is: which set of 3-whistle mechanics are you using? Are you using FED/NCAA men's mechanics? Or are you using pro/NCAA women's mechanics? The areas of responsibility are very different (especially for the Lead official) in these two systems.

If you're working FED/NCAAM mechanics, then -- roughly -- here's the areas of responsibility:

First imagine a line that goes from one basket to the other, dividing the court in half. When we're in a settled frontcourt situation, the Center has everything on his/her half of the court.

Now see where the imaginary line meets the FT line? Imagine another line from that point to the low block on the Lead's side. Now we've got a triangle in the lane. It goes from the midpoint of the FT line to the basket, then to the low block, then back to the midpoint of the FT line. The Lead owns that triangle.

The Trail has everything else on that half of the court.

Hope that helps.

wait a minute
 

Chuck-I think you meant to have the line from the midpoint of the FT line go to the intersection of the 3-pt line and the baseline...as far as I know, THAT is the lead's primary...

Re: wait a minute
 

I don't think that's what I meant. But if somebody quotes the officials' manual to show me I was wrong, then I guess that is what I meant. :)

ok
 

The only reason I'm second-guessing is because we're about to do a lot more 3-man this year, and I want to have it right...

In the FED official's manual (2003-5), the diagram on p. 51 shows the frontcourt primary coverage...The lead's area includes his/her half of the key, plus the area inside the 3-pt. arc below the FT-line extended

I hope I'm not hallucinating :)

Matt, you're probably not hallucinating. My 3-whistle experience is from NCAA games. I don't work any 3-whistle in HS, so I'm sure you're right. Thumbs up.

For FED and NCAA-Mens...

Is the Lead always supposed to be ball side? Or is it the other way around?

When the ball does switch sides, is there some kind of system or thought process you use for knowing when to switch? Do you wait a few seconds to see if the ball's coming back, or do you just run back and forth and follow the ball?

And finally (I'm getting my money's worth), when the Lead does switch sides, is it correct to say that the Trail and Center are switching also? Trail becoming Center and Center becoming Trail?

Not necessarily. Usually you'll be ball side if the ball has settle below the FT line. However, if there are 8 guys on the other side of the floor and you know the ball is going to that side, don't rotate and leave the C to officiate 8 players.

NO! You don't run. You walk briskly, keeping your eye on the player you should be officiating, not the ball.

Most offiicals are somewhere, halfway between the sideline and the FT lane, 4' off the end line if possible. When the ball swins to the top of the key, I close down toward the lane. If the ball continues to swing opposite and settles below the FT line, I only have to cross the width of the lane to flex over. Then I can manuever as needed once I'm on that side.

Yes. The old Trail, moving to C, should be the last one to rotate. It's okay to have two Trails for a few seconds bu you don't ever want to slots.

I'm going to disagree very slightly. I would say that you rotate at whatever speed you need to in order to get to your new position before the entry pass is made to the post. If the entry pass is imminent, then you run if necessary. What you don't want to happen is to be halfway across the lane as the big guy spins right into the defender's chest and you're straight-lined behind the defender. If the ball has settled high enough that you have time to walk briskly then that's what you do. But if you need to get there quicker, then that's what you do. JMO.

This is a technical point, so I apologize in advance, but no, that's not correct to say. Changing positions during live ball play based on the position of the ball is called rotation. Switching -- just like in 2-whistle -- is changing positions during a dead ball b/c a foul was called.

However, if you substitute the word "rotating" where you wrote "switching", then you would be correct.

Tony, what's the rationale for this statement? I've always been taught exactly the opposite. We want the C to stay put until the Lead has come all the way to his/her new position and "accepted the play". If the Trail moves to his/her new C spot, that's ok; but we don't want the old Center to abandon whatever action is causing the Lead to rotate. In essence, we're told "it's ok to have two Centers for a few seconds, but you don't ever want two Trails."

Any thoughts?

If you guys don't mind, I'd like to add my 1 1/2 cents to this discussion.

First, like to say that 3-person is the wave of the future. If you don't know 3-person mechanics then learn it. Eventually, 2-person will be a thing of the past.

Secondly, ChuckElias is correct. It is okay to have 2 C's. Having 2 T's usually indicates that the old T is ball watching. The T is supposed to rotate to the C position as the L rotates to the strong-side of the court. The C is supposed to "hold" his position and officiate the play until the L is in a position to officiate the play then, the "old" C rotates to the T position.

Finally, there are 2 positions that the L should be aware of: wide-out and close-down. When the L is strong-side then he should be in their wide-out position (half way between the lane line and the 3-pt line). As the ball moves to the center of the free-throw lane the L should move to the close-down position (2-3 ft. from the nearer lane line).
Then if you have to rotate, you have a shorter distance.

I've been working 3-person for at least 6 years and closing down has really helps speed up my rotations.

Leggs45,

I agree with all that except for where you described the position of wide angle. I was taught that wide-angle (what you call wide-out) is one step inside the 3-pt. line, not halfway between the lane line and the 3-pt. line.

Z

I disagree.
 

I am going to have to disagree with you on this one and totally agree with Tony. I have never been advised to run during a rotation. Not only will your partner possible miss your rotation, you should already be in some kind of position that walking will get you where you need to be. In other words, if you have closed down already, getting to the other side takes a much shorter time.

Peace

My point is that you don't want to run back and forth and you don't want to run unless you have to. Running usually means you don't get as good of a look at the play. If you have to run to rotate, I'd rather you stay put and let the center have it. You're going to get there late, be out of position or just plain look bad.


Tony, what's the rationale for this statement? I've always been taught exactly the opposite. We want the C to stay put until the Lead has come all the way to his/her new position and "accepted the play". If the Trail moves to his/her new C spot, that's ok; but we don't want the old Center to abandon whatever action is causing the Lead to rotate. In essence, we're told "it's ok to have two Centers for a few seconds, but you don't ever want two Trails."[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't disagree with you and I've heard and read the same thing. I'm not advocating that the C give up the action he's been officiating. We stress that. I'm also not advocating that he move before the L has completed the transition.

But here, we're really more concerned with transition and the possibility that the C may not realize that the L has rotated. If you have two C's, who going to transition to Lead if there's a quick turnover and fast break. We would rather that the T waits until the C rotates to T. That's the only way he knows that the C realizes that he's the new L if we have to go the other way. We can cover whatever we need to on this in. But transition to the other end and not have a lead is not good.

But saying "you never want two slots," was probably the wrong thing to say.



[Edited by BktBallRef on Oct 17th, 2004 at 11:39 PM]

condracek --

I'm checking in late on this thread, but I want to add a few things that the other folks may not have thought of. First of all, it would be very, very smart to always cover primary and secondary areas in a pre-game. Even for folks who have worked together for years, its' good to go over this kind of thing.

Secondly, because you are female and young, you must learn to stand up to the old farts who want to take your calls away.

You have to learn to do it in a way that's not confrontive or belligerent, but is assertive, confident and firm. "Thanks for taking that call, but I had a great angle, and I need to learn to get those myself." "Hey what did you see on that last block on the 3-point shot? It was in my area, and I thought the guy had lgp." "You know, that charge at the top of the key had been my play all the way across. Isn't that what we talked about in pre-game?"

Some guys just can't take this. You have to figure out who these guys are and black list them with your assignor. I think the best wording is, "Woody can't work with me. He's just got too much macho ego. I need to have partners who are more willing to give me a chance." "I won't work with so-and-so again" comes across too defensive.

Third, find a woman in your area who has some 3-person experience. It may be someone who doesn't do hs anymore. Keep asking around till you find someone who will give you some time and some advice. Ask who will be helpful and who to avoid. If you can find a college person who has some influence with your assignor, that would be good too.

I'm female, but I'm not young (not at all!!), but I have faced the same kinds of problems you're facing. 3-person is tough to learn, and if you're not doing it all the time, switching back and forth is really rugged. And there are a lot of men out there who condescend to someone young and female without really even realizing they are doing it. If you're small, too, or have a sort of young look on your face, it makes it worse. Keep working hard, and accepting your own mistakes. Others will respect your integrity, and learn to accept you as you are.

Lastly, take every opportunity to do 3-person. Keep making mistakes, and keep correcting them. I found it easiest to work on rotations first, and not worry about switches, especially long switches, or no long switches. That really threw me. Find some partners who won't look down and just work on one thing. Then add in something else next time.

I recommend against watching anything on TV that is a different set of mechanics from the one you're using. It's confusing.

Mostly, stick to it. Keep trying. You'll get it eventually, and I guarantee it'll be a lot faster than I did. Not that that's a lot of comfort.

[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 18th, 2004 at 12:17 AM]

Re: I disagree.
 

I agree with Rut and Tony. I've been taught that if you have to run, you are too late to get there in time and you might as well just wait until the next opportunity to go across.

Z

Running to rotate
 

Running across the lane is not the ideal, I agree. It's not what we want to do on every rotation. However, let's remember the whole purpose of 3-whistle mechanics. The whole point is to have two officials officiating the strong side of the court -- especially if the ball is in the post.

If you can get across to your new position before the ball enters the post, then do it. If you have to run, you probably waited too long? So what? So close down sooner next time. But this time, get your butt to where you need to be to officiate the play.

This is being taught at Guthrie's camps this year and my guess is that it will filter into general usage very soon.

Re: Running to rotate
 

Yes, the purpose is to have two officials <b> officiating </b> the strong side. If you are running across, looking at backs, you aren't officiating. You should have been there sooner to get a good angle on the post. At the camp I went to this summer, I was specifically told to stay put rather than run.

Z

Being picky!
 

Contrary to popular belief, the strong side is the side the T and L are on. Ball side is the side the ball is on. :)

I ain't running across the lane. I'll allow the C to officiate the play and I'll help if need be. ;)