Mens NCAA

Is there a specific rule pertaining to a player throwing the ball of HIS OWN backboard?

Rule 4, Section 18, Article 4, A.R. 13 pertains to a player who dribbles, stops his dribble, and throws the ball off of HIS OPPONENTS backboard. However, I wasnt able to find one about throwing it off of his own backboard.

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

Either backboard is considered part of the floor. The complication with regard to a player's own backboard is that you must judge whether the "throw" was a try for goal or not. If not, then throwing the ball off the backboard is just like bouncing the ball on the floor.

I would agree....however

Are you aware of anything specific in the NCAA rule book that pertains to that exact situation? Not a try at all, but a throw off of the backboard.

Looking for the specific rule. :)

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

I can't find anything that deals specifically with your situation. There's an A.R. that deals with throwing the ball off of an opponent's backboard or an official (under the definition of dribbling). Reasoning: this constitutes another dribble. However, there's another A.R. that says that it is legal if A1 dribbles stops, throws the ball against his/her own backboard, jumps, then catches and dunks while airborne (under the definition of try). Reasoning: the backboard is in A's half of the court, hence A1 is entitled to use it. Finally, there's an A.R. that says that it's legal for a thrower-in to throw the ball off the front or side of a backboard. Reasoning: the edge and front face are treated in this case as part of the playing floor.

That's all I could find. You'll have to draw your own conclusions about your situation. :)

Thanks Lotto.....

Rule 4, Section 67, Article 4, A.R.43 states:
A1 intercepts a pass and dribbles toward A’s basket for a break-away layup. Near A’s free-throw line, A1 legally stops and ends his or her dribble. A1 throws the ball
against A’s backboard and follows the throw. While airborne, A1 rebounds the ball off the backboard and dunks. RULING: The play shall be legal since the backboard is equip-ment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use.

Here was the situation:
A1 in a half-court situation, legally ends his dribble. He then throws the ball off of the backboard, catches the ball while still on the floor, takes two steps and scores the layup.

According to the ruling, which says " the backboard is equipment in A1's half of the court, which he is entitles to use", this play would be legal as well, correct?

I take my assumption from the ruling, because it does not say that the play MUST BE airborne, CANNOT take his allotted two steps, etc.... it simply says that A1 is entitled to use his backboard.

What do you think?

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

If someone throws it off their own backboard, grabs it and dunks it, just watch and enjoy it!! :)

JRitchie :)

I would, had that happened...LOL

But this guy is running towards the basket in a half court situation, picks up the ball, throws it against the backboard, and gets it back while he is still in the floor.. takes two steps in and lays the ball up.

I should have penalized him for degrading Tracy McGrady's infamous dunks!

I was lead on play, and you should have seen the 3 WIDE pairs of eyes go back and forth.

Luckily was only a scrimmage... but.. in a real game situation.....do we have a call???? ( NCAA Rule )

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

No team or player control. No unfair advantage, since all players have an opportunity to get ball, not just shooter.

In other words, it's a rebound. It is legal to dribble or shoot after a rebound.

Not sure about "two steps" being legal. Question should be which foot was pivot foot, and did pivot foot leave and return to ground prior to shot being released.

Which two steps are those? "Allotted" two steps? If you catch the ball with both feet on the floor, then you're allowed to lift one of them and put it back down. But then the other foot is your pivot and you can't lift it and then put it back down.

If your guy stepped (allotted step 1) and then lifted the other foot and put it down again ("allotted" step 2), you should've had a travel.

Jim,

Everything was done in stride....so he is running towards basket, picks up ball and throws it off of backboard...and if he had gotten a rebound on the run and taken two steps for his lay-up.. that would be legal. So I would assume this play would be as well.

Good thing we didnt blwo our whistles...lol

Thanks guys :)

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

Chuck,

Ok, let me attempt to explain it better.... and see if it makes a difference.

When he caught the ball, he was running and had not established any pivot foot ( airborne, but not airborne??? ) when he caught the ball, in stride, his first step was with his right foot, then his left...layup.

Hope that explains it more clearly...

Legal play then?

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

This is not correct, Lotto. Throwing the ball off the oppononent's backboard is always a dribble. Throwing the ball off your own backboard is never a dribble. The FED book makes this explicit, but it's also true in NCAA. The AR that you posted above gives an obvious example. The player dribbled, ended the dribble, threw off the backboard (obviously not a try -- he was passing to himself), and then caught the ball. If that was considered a dribble, the player would've committed a violation.

It's never part of a dribble to throw off your own backboard.

As long as he caught the rebound with both feet off the floor, that's fine. I got the impression from your previous post that he caught the ball with both feet on the floor. I'll read more carefully next time ;)

Legal play then, correct?

Is he allowed to dribble again as well? I would think so...

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

Chuck,

LOL.. :) Thats why I tried to explain the play more accurately.

The other teams coach asked me what I thought, and I said I would have to check the rulebook....because it was my understanding in the past that bouncing it off the backboard was considered a dribble....

I am going to pick up the video tape this morning, and told him I would have an answer for him.... so I will double check the tape and let you know exactly how it went down...

( Thankfully, my VCR comes with slow-motion!! :) )


Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

I don't disagree with your last statement (in so far as NCAA rules are concerned), but I don't agree with it either. There's nothing in the rulebook that I see that addresses this. In the A.R. I cited, it is explicitly stated that the player is airborne when he catches and dunks.

If throwing the ball off on one's own backboard is not like bouncing it on the floor, then there's nothing that I can find in the NCAA rulebook, other than the A.R. just cited that deals with a very narrowly conceived situation, that gives any sense of how to deal with this. So what is the status of a player throwing the ball off of his/her own backboard? Is it just like throwing the ball in the air? Is there a difference in NCAA/NFHS?

Being airborne or not is irrelevant. If throwing against your own backboard was a dribble, then it would still be a double dribble even if you caught the second "dribble" while airborne.

It's as if you took a shot. Or maybe not, b/c there's still team control. It's as if you intentionally threw the ball off your opponent. You can catch it and dribble, shoot, pivot, whatever.

The A.R. explicitly states that the player is airborne when he/she catches and then dunks. So it's not clear to me that the ruling applies if the player throws the ball off of his/her backboard and catches it on the ground.

For example, another A.R. that I cited above says that throwing the ball against your opponent's backboard is like throwing it off the floor and constitutes the start of a dribble. Since the A.R. explicitly talks about the opponent's backboard, I can't use it to draw a conclusion about throwing the ball of of one's own backboard.

Are you telling me that I can dribble, end the dribble, throw the ball off of my backboard, and dribble again? Even if it is absolutely clear that I am not throwing the ball up in a try for goal? I find that difficult to believe.

Do you have a rule reference to back any of this up?

(Chuck--My tone may come across as belligerent, but is not meant that way. I'm sincerely interested in why you interpret the rules the way you do.)

Lotto,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the interpret on this one. If you look at the Rule pertaining to bouncing the ball off of the OPPONENTS backboard, it gives you:

1) specific reason why the act is illegal
- bouncing ball off Opps bckbrd constitutes dribble

2) specific violation to call
- double dribble


The rule that we have been looking at to decide about the players own backboard does not give either of these specifics. It simply gives a situation.

But I think that the defining point here is this:
Upon saying that the situation in AR 43 is legal, it doesnt say that it is legal because the player is airborne, or anything else.

It says that " The play shall be legal since the backboard is equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use. "

Thats it. It there and he's entitled to use it.

I think Chuck's use of the similar situation of throwing the ball off of his opponent is perfect.

That said, you better eitherhave your rulebook with you, or be able to site the entire rule by heart if a player figures this rule out.. gets trapped with nothing to do...and throws it to himself off of the backboard....and B Coach is going absolutely APE SH** because you didnt call SOMETHING!! :)

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

only coaches who don't study the rules will do this. They don't count anyway.

If I understand you correctly, SavaahnTy, you believe that throwing the ball against your own backboard is the same as throwing it in the air. Is that right?

If not, then what?

HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAH RAINMAKER!!

Show me a coach who studies the rules, and I will...........

Just show me a coach who studies the rules first!!! :)


Lotto, I apologize. What I am saying is that when Chuck said that throwing the ball off of YOUR OWN backboard is the same is throwing the ball off of your opponent ( he has touched it, so now you can do whatever you want with it ) that he explained the situation well.

AR 43 says your backboard is equip in your half of the court, and you are entitled to use it.

AND SPECIFICALLY GIVES NO RESTRICTIONS UPON SECURING THE BALL AFTER IT HAS BEEN RETRIEVED FROM HITTING THE BACKBOARD.( which means all other basketball rules would apply..ie he cant walk 6 steps with the ball upon securing it from the bckbrd simply because there are no SPECIFIC restrictions :) )

Does that explain it a bit better?

Man, I definately see I have to work on my typing/internet communication skills... :) :)

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

It's better than just throwing it in the air...if you threw it in the air you wouldn't get a new dribble. If you throw it against your own backboard you get to start a new dribble...isn't that great!!

Is there any difference in the double dribble rule that would make a move legal when performed in the air but make the same move illegal when performed with one or both feet on the ground?

I think the answer to that question is "no".

So. . . if it's legal to throw the ball off your backboard and catch it while airborne, I have to conclude that there's nothing in the dribble rule that would make it illegal to throw the ball off your backboard and catch it one or both feet on the ground.


Yes.

Yes.

And yet. . .


Not on me. FED makes this explicit in a case book play, I'm prety sure. But my book is still in the car from last night. I think the AR that you quoted is pretty good evidence for NCAA rules.

Sweat it not. Dan might've suggested that you snuggle up to your horse; but I could tell you didn't mean anything by it. :)

I'd love to see the text of this case. (We use NCAA rules for the HS games that I ref, so I only have the NCAA book.) Could you, or someone else, provide it for me? Thanks!

ncaa 4-67 art 4 a.r.43

That's the A.R. I cited above. I'm looking for the NFHS case book play that says that you can legally end a dribble, throw the ball off of your own backboard, and dribble again.

should be in 9-5-1 but i don't have my case book with me

You won't find it. There's no NFHS case book play that specifically states that.

But isn't there a rule or case that includes note like "Throwing the ball off the backboard is the same as throwing the ball off the floor, except that throwing the ball of one's own backboard does not constitute a dribble"?

There's a rule that says that "a ball which touches the front faces or edges of a backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute a part of the dribble". NFHS R4-4-5. Is that what you were thinking of?

Note that it also doesn't say that it doesn't constitute a pass either. :D