NCAA Men`s rules. While A-4`s shot attempt is in flight, B-4 and A-4 commit a double personal foul. The try is successful. How shall the game resume?

I'm thinking AP - double foul while neither team has control.

Anyone else?

All double fouls are resumed by giving the ball back to the team in control. In this case, since Team B will have control after A4's try is successful, you count the basket and award the ball to Team B for a throw-in anywhere along the endline.

Now to tweak this a bit, NFHS rules, A1 is in the act of shooting but hasn't released the ball yet. A2 and B2 are involved in a double foul situation. Is the ball dead immediately or does continuous motion apply??

Hmmmm....

So what if the shot doesn't go in?

A double foul causes the ball to become dead immediately, if the ball is not yet in flight. Continuous motion does not apply to double fouls only to personal or technical fouls.
6.7 Comment "Continuous motion is of significance only when there is a personal or technical foul by B after the trying or tapping motion by A1 is started and before the ball is in flight."

However, if the ball IS in flight when a double foul occurs, it does NOT cause the ball to become dead.
If the try is successful, the goal is scored and play is resumed with an AP throw-in from the OOB spot nearest the double foul. See 4.19.7 Sit C.

[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 12th, 2004 at 07:09 AM]

Obviously, you have to use the arrow.

Chuck, I think you missed this one, unless they've changed things for this year. Look at the 04 rulebook after Rule 10-24, which says you go to the arrow since there's no team control at the time of the double foul:

A.R. 26. A1 shoots and while the ball is in the air, the shot-clock horn sounds to indicate the end of the shot clock period. While the ball is in the air, the official calls a double foul on A2 and B2. (a) The try is successful; RULING: The official shall wait to see what happens to the try. The ball does not become dead until the try in flight ends. In (a) the goal shall count, the alternating-possession arrow shall be used to determine which team gains possession of the ball for a throw-in nearest to the spot where the double foul occurred. The shot clock shall be reset.

Where does it say that continuous motion does not apply to double personal fouls? I think the situation you quote is simply to illustrate that a double personal foul is not a player control foul. Is there anywhere else this is mentioned?

I think the situation is similar to that in the NCAA rule book:
A.R. 26. A1 shoots and while the ball is in the air, the shot-clock horn sounds to indicate
the end of the shot clock period. While the ball is in the air, the official calls a double foul
on A2 and B2. (a) The try is successful; (b) the try is unsuccessful but hits the ring/flange;
or (c) the try is unsuccessful and does not hit the ring/flange. RULING: The official shall
wait to see what happens to the try. The ball does not become dead until the try in flight
ends. In (a) the goal shall count, the alternating-possession arrow shall be used to deter-mine
which team gains possession of the ball for a throw-in nearest to the spot where the
double foul occurred. The shot clock shall be reset. In (b) the alternating-possession
arrow shall be used as in (a) and the shot clock shall be reset. In (c) the alternating-pos-session
arrow shall be used and the shot clock shall be reset even though a shot-clock
violation occurred. The double foul takes precedence and the ball shall be awarded for a
throw-in with the use of the alternating-possession arrow.

i have to agree with jim
 

continuous motion is used if you have a personal or technical, so it would be used if you have a double personal too!

We had a discussion of this last year, b/c of the NCAA test. There were two questions that were almost identical. Try in the air and (a) double personal foul is called or (b) double technical foul is called. In both questions the try was successful.

In the first case, the correct answer was to give the ball to B. In the second case, the correct answer was to go to the arrow. I didn't understand why there was a difference and we talked it out a little. Maybe somebody can find the thread; I looked last night and couldn't find it.

In any case, this year, ALL double fouls go back to the team in control. So whether it's double personals or double Ts, you'd give the ball to the non-scoring team and let them run the endline.

Well, I may have to eat some crow on this one. I just went to the NCAA site and looked at the '05 rulebook (I don't get mine til Sunday). I looked through Rule 10 and the Summary of Penalties. Double Ts are still listed as going to the POI. I thought for sure that I had read that they were changing that to be the same as double personals.

And that makes me question my interpretation of the original play. Maybe I had it backwards: go to the arrow for personals and give possession after the Ts. Bob?


[Edited by ChuckElias on Oct 12th, 2004 at 10:38 AM]

Chuck, I just downloaded the 2005 NCAA rule book (thanks for letting me know it's up on the web site!). They haven't changed the approved ruling that I cited above, which clearly indicates that in the case of a double personal foul with the ball in flight, you go to the arrow. (The numbering has changed---in the 2005 book, it is now A.R. 25 in Rule 10-24, page BR-154.) It doesn't matter whether the try is successful or not. The reasoning, I believe, is that there is no team control at the time when the fouls occur, which is during the try.

What is the website for NCAA RULEBOOK '05
 

THANKS IN ADVANCE ;)

Right there in the Case Book comment to 6.7! It specifies ONLY personal or technical fouls. Logically, this must tell you that continuous motion does NOT apply to all of the other types of fouls. All of the different types of fouls are listed in 4-19. A double foul is an entirely different animal. Even though it may consist of two personal fouls, it is not a personal foul. Many people are unclear on that point.

That is quite true. And since it is not a PC, but something totally different the ball does not become dead. One thing that this case book play does is demonstrate that the basket counts if a double foul occurs WHILE A TRY IS IN FLIGHT. That is why I cited it.

The only other reference I can find is 6-7 Exception 3 (following Art. 9). It is not any clearer than what I have already told you though. The language used there is "A foul committed by any opponent..."
Since a double foul is not a foul by an opponent, it is a foul committed by both teams, this exception wouldn't apply and the ball becomes dead per 6-7-7.
That is the best I can do for ya. Perhaps the NFHS should issue one of its wonderful "clarifications" on this.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nevadaref
Right there in the Case Book comment to 6.7! It specifies ONLY personal or technical fouls. Logically, this must tell you that continuous motion does NOT apply to all of the other types of fouls. All of the different types of fouls are listed in 4-19. A double foul is an entirely different animal. Even though it may consist of two personal fouls, it is not a personal foul. Many people are unclear on that point.

Logically, this does not follow. A double foul is two personal fouls or two technical fouls. It is not a different type of foul than specified in 6.7, just two of them. I defer to your experience, but this is another instance of poor writing on Fed's part.

i have to agree, double foul is just 2 personals
 

not a different type of foul, just happens to be two of them, or that is how i would see it! I think it is definitely a bad way to be written though.

Thanks Lotto. I just received my 2005 Rule Book. You nailed it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jimgolf

Quote:

Originally posted by Nevadaref Right there in the Case Book comment to 6.7! It specifies ONLY personal or technical fouls. Logically, this must tell you that continuous motion does NOT apply to all of the other types of fouls. All of the different types of fouls are listed in 4-19. A double foul is an entirely different animal. Even though it may consist of two personal fouls, it is not a personal foul. Many people are unclear on that point. Logically, this does not follow. A double foul is two personal fouls or two technical fouls. It is not a different type of foul than specified in 6.7, just two of them. I defer to your experience, but this is another instance of poor writing on Fed's part.

It may not seem logical but this is the NFHS. The reason that a double foul must be considered a different type of foul is due to a rule change quite a while ago which dramatically altered the penalty phase.
Back in the day if Team A had committed 8 fouls in the half while Team B had only committed 4, and a double personal foul was called, then Team B would go shoot 1-and-1. If both teams were in the bonus, I think, both teams shot FTs.
Today the NFHS rule is that NO FTs are awarded on double personal or double technical fouls and possession is awarded by using the arrow.
So you can see why you cannot just consider a double foul to be two personal fouls. The penalty phase is entirely different.