Coach has been complaining about non-calls most of the first half. Talks to me at half-tmie about a non-call on a loose ball (he felt a foul should have been called, I felt all contact was incidental).

Now second half, I'm lead, and no call on a rebound. He's at the other end of court and immediately complains, then a made basket. His girls start bringing the ball up the court and I notice him glaring at me the whole way up the court? Whack.

I've said this before, but you can't whack a guy for looking at you. If you need to whack that guy, you do it when he's yelling, jumping, throwing the clipboard, etc. If you pass on that behavior, you have no business giving a T for "glaring". That's just my opinion, obviously, but I'm pretty convinced of it.

I agree with Chuck
 

I agree with Chuck...if you whack him for glaring, there aren't many who know what happened...if he is yelling everyone knows what is going on....

tjchamp,

I'm with Chuck and cmathews. If you needed to "T" him, the time to do it was when he was complaining.

Now I did see a "good T" given once just for staring, but it was quite different than your scenario. The one I saw was a coach who called a time-out and then walked about 15-feet on to the court and glared at on official for the entire time-out. It was quite obvious to everyone that he was being a jerk and the T near the end of the time-out was well deserved. In fact, the athletic director apologized to the officials after the game and thanked them for not ejecting him too. :-)

Z

Nothing.
 

You gave him a T for what? How did you notice that he was watching you? Was there not a basketball game going on in front of you?

Dude, you have to lighten up. <a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_104.gif' alt='Shock 3' border=0></a>

Peace

refs who become coachs
 

in my young reffing career...there have been those times when I have done games that the coach is an ex-official...knows the rules. Now i have had him glare at me...hold his nose (favorite of mine) and verbally complain abouts his girls getting called...usally ignore it but then his girls on the bench start coughing whenever either ref goes by his bench...after warning for unsporting conduct..bang

Re: refs who become coachs
 

Hold his nose so that everybody in the world can see it? Jmo, but that's an automatic T if I ever heard of one. No warning needed for that one either.

Thanks for the advice all! I thought I might have been quick, that's why I asked. I'll chalk it up to experience, and move on.

But even in this case, the T is not for staring. It's for being on the floor inappropriately. And personally, I would hope that the T was not given until one of my partners tried to walk the coach back to the box.

If the coach wants to spend his precious 60 seconds (or 30, or 75, or whatever) looking at you, you cannot T him/her for that. If you want to do something, wink at him or blow a kiss or put on a big dexter-eating grin and stare back.

Re: refs who become coachs
 

As JR, said this is an easy T, especially if the coach is also an official. I realize in your sitch, he was an "ex"-official, but he still knows better. Whack 'im early and often.

I saw this T on TV several years back. It was called on the Temple coach (whose name I can't come with at this moment). I think I'd have ignored him. The announcers were harping during the entire timeout on how he was showing up the refs, so maybe he deserved it.

whyinthehellnot?

[Edited by Dan_ref on Sep 27th, 2004 at 11:35 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]That was Chuck who said that, not me.

Z

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

But even in this case, the T is not for staring. It's for being on the floor inappropriately. And personally, I would hope that the T was not given until one of my partners tried to walk the coach back to the box. If the coach wants to spend his precious 60 seconds (or 30, or 75, or whatever) looking at you, you cannot T him/her for that. If you want to do something, wink at him or blow a kiss or put on a big dexter-eating grin and stare back.

I completely disagree Chuck.

First of all, a coach (and the players) can be on the floor during a time-out so that isn't what the T was for.

Second of all, if you wink or blow him a kiss, you are just inciting him and becoming involved in his antics so that is much worse.

Trying to "walk him back to his huddle" once he's reached that point would most likely be pointless or throw gas on the fire.

If his whole purpose for the time-out is to stare at you and it's obvious to you and everyone in the gym, that is very unsportsmanlike.

Z

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman
[B]Yep, I fixed it.

BOTH!
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias Quote: Originally posted by zebraman If the coach wants to spend his precious 60 seconds (or 30, or 75, or whatever) looking at you, you cannot T him/her for that. whyinthehellnot?

I like both sides of this argument...

The loud screaming coach... it is definitely easy to justify a T-bone here. The act is sold to everyone already - by the coach. It just now needs to be administered by the official.

Most LOOKS I can look away from and thereby ignore. But why do I need to look away. This coach is trying to create some animosity by giving you the "I'm gonna kick your arse" look. Am I required to ignore, acknowledge, see past ... what? Often I can look away/beyond such childish acts but perhaps today, I choose to acknowledge his antics. I still feel justified and now after administering the T, less distracted.

The nose hold, or throat choke... T-Bone

The accusatory diligent stare... maybe, maybe not. I would really like to smile and wave at the coach who wants to spend his timeout staring me down... but that IS kind of smartassed... and funny. :D



[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Sep 27th, 2004 at 12:48 PM]

Because he's not doing anything illegal. He's looking at you. What are you gonna write on the report? "He was looking at me in a very mean way"? "He was creeping me out"? Boo-hoo. Poor baby.

He is entitled to stand and look at you if he wants to. It's his TO.

In the Temple game, the coach was John Chaney, a major league dexterhole, who once said he'd kill John Calipari. I believe that he was NOT T'd up for the stare-down incident. I could be wrong, but I saw it on TV, and I'm pretty sure that there was no T. Perhaps there was another incident that resulted in a T, I'm not sure.

Finally, the comment about blowing a kiss was intended to be a joke. That would obviously be unprofessional and inappropriate. I was trying to be funny. I have however, flashed the big grin to fans.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Sep 27th, 2004 at 07:53 PM]

A "T" is in the eye of the beholder. I would probably beholder with Dan on this one. If a coach is trying to make me look like a dexterhole, imo, then a T is his just reward. And I are a just official!

It was Don Chaney and it was probably closer to 15 years ago. You're right- he didn't get a T for that, but he got one later on in the same game. And threatening to kill Calipari definitely does NOT make him a bad person. Chaney would have to stand in line for that one. Calipari is a jerk.

Probably the same thing that Joey Crawford wrote on his report to the NBA when he tossed Don Nelson of the Mavs for taking a time-out to stare at him last year.

Besides, the case I saw a coach get a T for it was the first T so no report was necessary.

Z

Why are you so concerned about some after game report?

You make all your calls based on how you'll justify them later?

Kinda like Ron Garretson's, "Stop eyeballing me, Rasheed," T a few years ago.

John Chaney.

My understanding is that the ECAC requires a report on every unsporting T, not just ejections.

Because that report goes to my assignor. And if my assignor thinks that I have a quick trigger, or that I ref with a chip on my shoulder, or that I can't handle a guy looking at me the wrong way, I lose assignments. So I want to be able to put a quote on that report: "He called me a so-and-so". I don't want the report to say, "I didn't like the way he was looking at me".

No. But you and I both know that as you move up, the name of the game is "beat the tape". When the commissioner looks at that tape (and you know he'll get the tape if you throw that T), I don't want to get a phone call asking, "What did he say to you?" or "What did he do?" I want it to be obvious that something happened.

And finally, you focused on my comment about the report and overlooked the most important part of that post. You can't T the coach b/c he hasn't done anything illegal. Looking at you is not illegal. There's nothing in the book that prohibits "staring" or "glaring" or whatever. He hasn't addressed you in a disrespectful manner, b/c he hasn't addressed you at all. If you really feel that the staring is not acceptible, you put that T "in your pocket", as Edgar would say, and bring it out the next time he does something that is borderline that you might normally let go. I personally would not do this, but I honestly believe that you can't T a guy for doing literally nothing.

I don't put one in my pocket.

I don't take unsporting disrespectful bullsh1t from coaches. Where I come from staring someone down is a threat. If the coach is too stupid to realize this then too f'ing bad.

I don't worry about what I'll say to anyone after taking care of business.

A coach did this to me once -- called a TO and then stared at me the whole time. I debated the T, but the only person who looked like a fool through the whole time-out was him! He was the away coach from a long distance, so he didn't have a lot of fans there to back him up. He was losing badly, because he was a lousy coach, and he didn't know the rules. I didn't see any point in being quick on the trigger. Later, I had to T him for something else and I was glad I didn't have to toss him. Reports, and all that...

Where I come from staring someone down is a threat.

[/B][/QUOTE]I agree with Mr. Bickle.Just say to the coach <b>"You talking to me?"</b>

As I said, I wouldn't either. I've never done that. It was just a suggestion.


Well, I guess I'm too stupid to realize it too. Because where I come from, staring someone down is staring.

Obviously, you and I think differently about this, and that's ok. You can't always be right. ;) And besides, it's a pretty interesting conversation. But honestly, what "business" is being taken care of? Nothing's been said, nothing has happened. No gestures were made. I don't see how an official can give a T for literally nothing. JMHO.

In general, I agree with Chuck on this -- either ignore it, or T for something else*, or bait him into a T (no -- I'm not recommending this), or talk to him -- "I need you to go to your huddle, coach" or "did you have a qquestion?"

* -- example of a T for something else: A5 fouled out. After I reported the foul, and notified the coach, he decided to use the 30 seconds to step (one or two steps) onto the floor to stare at me. I made a big deal (so everyone could see / wouold know what was happening) of instructing the timer to time 30 seconds and give me a horn when the time had elapsed.

When the horn went off, there was no player at the table. T. Immediately.

totally agree
 

staring is not a technical foul...don't see staring in the rule book under technical foul either... :) yeah it may aggrevate some, but surely he had to say something that you could of T'd him for before he started his little staring spree???

I don't know how many times I can say the same thing but let's try again:

IMO "staring down" an official as in this play is disrespectful and unsporting behavior. If the game is at the point where a T will help, the coach is getting his T.

Apparently you and others agree with me that this is unsporting behavior but you don't like the direct approach. Even though YOU wouldn't do it you suggest we put it in our pocket. Juulie says wait long enough & the coach will eventually get completely out of control and we'll T him anyway - of course we don't want to have to throw too many T's or we'll be filing reports. Even though Bob says HE wouldn't do it he suggests we bait him. BTW I do agree with Bob that the first step *must* be to confront the coach in this play and give him a chance to back off but the unsporting behavior occurs when he does not comply. After all, if you tell the coach to go back to his huddle and he says "NO" what happens next? As for whether staring appears in the book or not: please tell me what rule says "These and only these actions are to be considered unsporting".

I don't agree. I think it's juvenille and shows poor coaching ability (wasting a TO), but I don't think it's unsportsmanlike. It's nothing. It's a look. And a look isn't T-worthy, in my opinion.

As I said earlier, if you don't like it, then just get him the next time he actually does something. But you can't T somebody who hasn't done anything illegal. And no matter where you come from, looking at someone is not illegal. And like you, I feel I've been saying the same thing over and over, but I don't know how else to make my point. No illegal action = no T.

I also said this very early in the thread. I said that if a T is thrown in this situation, I would hope that it would not happen until after my partner had tried to walk him back to his box.

Chuck,

As for whether staring appears in the book or not: please tell me what rule says "These and only these actions are to be considered unsporting".

I specifically said that I DO NOT recommend this.

I specifically did NOT say you recommend this.

I said you SUGGEST it.

Obviously, it doesn't. However, no matter what is specifically listed, "nothing" is not listed, nor I think is it implied. I can't imagine giving a T to someone who is literally doing nothing, except breathing.

You obviously disagree, and that's ok.

I don't mind that we disagree.

I mind that you presume to take the high road by saying your opinion is supported by the rules, when it clearly is not.

10-3-7
There is no attempt at all to list all possible unsporting acts. IOO, an unsporting act is in the eyes of the beholder. You don't think someing is not unsporting? Fine...but don't use nonexistent rules to defend what is obviously merely your opinion.

I'm not trying to take the high road, and I hope that you know after camping together that I'd work any game with you in a heartbeat. I'm not trying to disparage your opinion.

Here's my problem, and I guess I haven't been saying it quite right. The rule you quote above says that an unsporting foul includes but is not limited to such acts as: blah, blah, blah.

In the situation that we're discussing, there is literally no "act". The person is simply standing and looking at you. In my mind, you need to do something to get a T. Say something, gesture, throw something, stand where you're not supposed to. In the case of a coach staring, he's not doing anything. And in my mind, therefore, no T is warranted. This is why I've been saying that you can't T somebody for doing nothing. You have to do something to get an unsporting T.

So what you're telling me is that when the coach engages in the act of staring at you he's actually not engaging in ANY act at all.

I got this right?

Wha happened?

The kids over on the baseball board aren't allowed to come out & play with you anymore?

No, actually. What I'm telling you is that "staring" is not an act. There's no such thing as "the act of staring" that you mention. Staring, if you really want to get down to it, is the absense of action. Staring is NOT moving your eyes, and usually also means not moving anything else either.

NOT moving your eyes is not an action. It's not an act. It is literally doing nothing. I don't think you can give an unsporting T for doing nothing.

A mouse being stared at by a cat might disagree.

I doubt it. The mouse would be very happy to be stared at eternally. It's the pouncing that he would resent.

An official should not resent the staring; s/he should resent the pouncing.

In an effort to prevent this from going on for an eternity I'll be leaving.

In an effort to prevent this from going on for an eternity I'll be leaving.

[/B][/QUOTE]
http://www.smiling-faces.com/smilies...rrendering.gif
Say it ain't so! Sob!

Chuck,

While I agree with your position that this "act" in and of itself does not warrant a T (the fact of the matter is, if he is in this state of mind he is going to do something else that in my "judgement" will warrant a T very shortly), I have to respectfully disagree with your position that this is not an "act". As such, I can see why Dan and others might, in their judgement, see this act as T-worthy.

The word "stare" is a verb and as such, implies an action or act. When I was growing up I was told by my parents not to stare. By your definition, they were telling me to stop doing nothing. If a coach is staring at you, he is not doing nothing. Some could see it as showing you up, trying to intimidate, influence etc. If the coach didn't think it would serve a purpose, he wouldn't be "doing" it.

Again, I agree that I probably wouldn't T and I think your point is valid as to how one would explain this to an assignor b/c everything I have heard from those in my area is that in most cases they want more than just the referee knowing why the T was given.... in other words, it should be obvious to most others in the arena.

Just my two cents. Good Debate.

Any grammarians want to step in here? :) Your statement is just not true, Junkie. "Wait" is a verb. But if I say "I'll wait", I mean that I won't do anything for the moment.


That's exactly what they were telling you. They were saying "Avert your eyes. Don't just sit there with your eyes fixed. Move them. Stop doing nothing."

He may think that the official will be intimidated, influenced, etc., but he hasn't done anything to bring that about.

2 days and counting!!!!
 

and we still will never have everyone agree...great debate though, i enjoyed hearing everyones opinion!! I myself agree that a stare is not an act, but soon s/he will have to do something that merits a T and i won't hesitate

I would think that staring would not happen by itself (possibly it could - but I would not think so). And his staring is likely just another step closer to crossing the T-bone line. Some coaches like to do that - just push a little at a time. Never doing anything egregious but just pushing a little farther, and a little farther, and a little farther with questionable antics, seeing when you will blow-up for his last little push. And then he incredulously asks if you really assessed a technical foul because he stared at you? Staring is likely just another straw to see if he can break your back.

During the activity of the game, it would be easy to look away. Ignore the staring and it will likely go away. During a timeout, it would not be so easy to ignore. So I like Bob's response for this situation (although I would talk to my partner and have him cover my back), go talk to the coach. "Do you have a question?" "Is there something we need to talk about, Coach?" etc. If he doesn't answer and just continues to stare you might make some further, professional comment or tactfully request him to stop/return to the huddle. Turn and walk back to your timeout position. Now your partner should be watching for the extra stuff he might do as you walk away and your partner can assess a technical for those antics (bait him with professionalism). During a timeout he can be on the court and can spend that time staring at you, or at the cheerleaders, or whatever.

When a coach stares, he is definitely trying to aggravate you, intimidate you, push you. Do you respond? Ignoring him may push him to his next level/antic for trying to intimidate you.

I tend to smile and chuckle at people who obviously try to intimidate me. It is not a professional response but then the act of trying to intimidate is not professional either. Some day I hope to grow up. Maybe this year.

We had a preparatory officers meeting last evening for the upcoming High School season! Time for me to go do some running. :D

chuck,

before i posted, i looked up 'stare' in the dictionary and it states... function: verb. this means an action by my understanding but i would be happy to here the opinion from a grammarian. as i am not one i could be wrong :D And parents don't tell kids not to stare because they want them to stop doing nothing, it is because it is socially unacceptable in our culture to stare... stare = rude.

i am going to stop here, because you and I are going to end up arguing a point we already agree on... this is not in and of itself T-worthy! :D

seasons almost here!

You all are looking up the wrong word.

Sportsmanship - Conduct and attitude considered as befitting participants in sports, especially fair play, courtesy, striving spirit, and grace in losing.

Help me understand how a coach is exhibiting sportsmanship when he stands on the court and stares at you during a time out.

It's also unsportsmanlike for the coach to yell out "You gotta call that Ref!!!" but I don't always give him/her a T. It's a judgement call. A staring coach is more comical to me than aggravating. I wouldn't give a T, but it wouldn't bother me if my partner did.

-good comment.

Chuck if staring is doing nothing, next time I go to the beach with my wife can I stare at some young woman and after I get busted answer--"What, I wasn't doing anything."

Okay, that's actually probably what I will answer but it's better not to get caught doing this nothing.

Wow, first JRut has a semi-haiku over on the football board, now Chuck is getting all philosophical (the degree will do that to ya, I guess) - what are we getting ourselves into?!!??!?

another 2 cents
 

Like a lot of other things we could mention, I see this as something that would really have to be taken to an extreme to justify the T. Staring by definition is an act, but one of a passive nature. (to gaze at steadily and intently) If that's all that there is to it, a stare not accompanied by gestures or mumbling, (G rated version: no good homer, make up calling peckerwood, visually impaired nitwit) where this stare takes place now becomes the key.
If he stands in his huddle and looks in my direction, I got nothing. If he walks across the court and puts his face six inches from mine and stares I whack him. For anything in between it's like the old live Jimmy Buffett album, "You Had to Be There," and I think each of us must draw his own line of how much is too much.

At beach or on court,
Staring is merely looking.
Not unsportsmanlike.

I totally agree
 

and would much rather be at the beach in that situation

"a coach who called a time-out and then walked about 15-feet on to the court and glared at an official for the entire time-out"

If you're saying that glaring in this manner is still showing good sportsmanship, then we'll have to agree to disagree. Wow.

In what manner? With his eyes open? What is the big deal about having somebody look at you?

Lots of things do not show good sportsmanship. But most of those things do not draw technical fouls.

I've said all I care to say about this topic. Looking at somebody is not worthy of a T. Looking intently at somebody is not worthy of a T. Unless accompanied by some other action or verbiage.

If somebody wants to look like an idiot by staring at me for 60 seconds, I am neither intimidated nor threatened by that.

I still agree with Dan, fwiw. And that's not just us Yankee fans sticking together either. :D

I agree whole heartedly with this. There is NO way I would EVER call a T for staring, but it IS unsportsmanlike and could rightfully be called by someone else. In fact, OhioHSAA just made "staring down the official" a direct technical. Approved Modified National Federation Rule 10-5-3.

Interesting!!!