Timekeeping Errors

[Stat-Man]

(This also came up in our Thursday night social, but deserves a separate thread.)

Team A has the ball with 20-some seconds left in the period. For whatever reason the timekeeper starts the clock 3 seconds late, but nobody says anything.

Team A goes into their stall offense to wait for the clock to run down before attacking. With 3 seconds left on the clock, the official blows the play dead and says he's been counting the time (for all this time ?) and that the period is over.

While this is a HTBT thing in my mind, my question is if you know the clock was improperly started and a team isn't aggressively attacking their basket, would you whistle play dead and correct the time, just to avoid this sort of situation? I could see if there was 5 seconds left and there was no time to reasonably correct the clock, but with 20+ seconds and a team trying for the last shot, it seems like this could have been caught sooner.

[Mark Dexter]

If they're in a stall offense, I'd generally blow it dead (after making ABSOLUTELY sure B wasn't even considering attempting to steal the ball).

If he's sure that the clock started 3 seconds late, though, he's technically correct in blowing it dead. Although you're going to have a very upset A coach, especially if his plan was to start his play at 3 seconds left on the clock.

[Nevadaref]

In this situation I would use some common sense and simply ignore the timer's error. Both teams are consenting to run the clock down to the last few ticks and then have a final play. If we use the above example of attacking with 3 seconds remaining on the clock, what difference does it make if they run off 17 or 20 seconds before then? None, IMO.
Those extra seconds in the stall are meaningless.


[Edited by Nevadaref on Sep 25th, 2004 at 10:54 PM]

[ChuckElias]

I would agree with Mark, and disagree with Nevada. As soon as you notice the clock is not running, blow the play dead and adjust it.

In theory, Nevada is right. The extra 3 seconds don't matter if they're gonna run it down to 3 anyway. But if anybody else notices the clock, and you don't take care of it, you will look very very bad. Observers LOVE clock awareness. If you're aware of it, fix it. JMO

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I would agree with Mark, and disagree with Nevada. As soon as you notice the clock is not running, blow the play dead and adjust it.

In theory, Nevada is right. The extra 3 seconds don't matter if they're gonna run it down to 3 anyway. But if anybody else notices the clock, and you don't take care of it, you will look very very bad. Observers LOVE clock awareness. If you're aware of it, fix it. JMO

Well said, Chuck. If you can catch it nice and early before it can effect play that is clearly best. However, we all know how much of a pain these failure to start the clock situations can be. The biggest problem is that you can't know that the clock hasn't properly started until a couple of seconds should have elapsed (unless you have a clock which shows tenths in the final minute, then you can notice it quicker--thankfully these clocks are becoming much more common). It just takes that long to ascertain that your timer is asleep or that there has been an equipment malfunction. So by the time the official knows something is wrong, the offense could have pushed the ball well up the floor and might be attacking on the basket. Since we wouldn't want to stop the game under these circumstances, its gets darn messy.
While I am in NO way advocating that my above suggestion is correct according to the rules, I do believe that you will get more acceptance and have a better chance of getting out of that gym alive using my just ignore it philosophy, than if you handle the situation the way stated in Stat-man's original post.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

If you can catch it nice and early before it can effect play that is clearly best. The biggest problem is that you can't know that the clock hasn't properly started until a couple of seconds should have elapsed (unless you have a clock which shows tenths in the final minute, then you can notice it quicker--thankfully these clocks are becoming much more common). It just takes that long to ascertain that your timer is asleep or that there has been an equipment malfunction. So by the time the official knows something is wrong, the offense could have pushed the ball well up the floor and might be attacking on the basket. Since we wouldn't want to stop the game under these circumstances, its gets darn messy.
While I am in NO way advocating that my above suggestion is correct according to the rules, I do believe that you will get more acceptance and have a better chance of getting out of that gym alive using my just ignore it philosophy, than if you handle the situation the way stated in Stat-man's original post.

Ignore a timer's error that you knew about? WOW! I'm with Chuck. Correct the mistake as soon as it's recognized- as long as A isn't attacking the basket, which they weren't because the original post said that they were in a stall offense. To do anything else is just going against the purpose and intent of the rule. And worrying about "getting out of the gym alive" if you merely correct a clock error? If you're worrying about something like that, then you're in the wrong racket. Quite simply, that's part of your job! Does your "just ignore it philosophy" also include not calling any late fouls either, because you're worried that you might not get out of the gym alive if you do call one?

[Jimgolf]

Rule 5-10-2 says that the ref can correct a timer's error if he has definite knowlege of the timer's error. The error should have been corrected prior to the stopping of the backcourt count. There is no reason to continue a count after that, unless the offensive player is closely guarded, which is not the case in this situation. The ref has no business keeping the game clock in his head. Make the correction or ignore the error. Keeping a silent count of the game clock is contrary to the spirit of the rules.

[Camron Rust]

Counting down to 3 and blowing the whistle to end the period is NOT the right thing to do. Either blow it dead and fix it or forget it. There could be debates on which is better. I'm leaning towards stopping it and fixing it. Depends on how much really should be taken off. 1, perhaps 2, I might just ignore it. 3+, probably stopping it to get it right. Heck, if that's the case, the clock keeper has probably not yet started the clock at all.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
The ref has no business keeping the game clock in his head....Keeping a silent count of the game clock is contrary to the spirit of the rules.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Counting down the final seconds of the game is, IMHO, a very good practice. It keeps the final buzzer from sneaking up on you. It helps you be ready to decide if the final shot got off in time. If one team is stalling for the last shot, knowing the time will help you be ready when they make their move. A referee is responsible for enforcing all of the rules, including the timing rules. How can you do that if you're not aware of the game clock: how much time is on it and how much time *should* be on it?

[Adam]

As I read this, I'm trying to think of how it happens in real life. Three seconds isn't that long. In a situation where the team is moving slowly and stalling for a last shot, those three seconds are completely irrelevant. If he noticed it before the clock started, by all means blow it dead and embarrass the timer. If he didn't notice it until after the clock started and after the point where he realized the offense was waiting to run the play, let it go. Fixing it only causes more problems than it solves, and seems to me to break the spirit of the rules.

By secretly counting down the clock, the ref put the offense at an unfair disadvantage. This strikes me as really poor game management.

[Jimgolf]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

A referee is responsible for enforcing all of the rules, including the timing rules. How can you do that if you're not aware of the game clock: how much time is on it and how much time *should* be on it?

Timekeepers' and referees' timekeeping responsibilities are pretty clearly spelled out in the rule book. There is ample opportunity in this situation for one of the refs to see that the clock is not running properly and make the correction before time expires.

If you are counting the seconds in your head, how is anyone to know how much time is left? You can use definite knowlege to correct the clock, not to replace it.

[Kelvin green]

Sometimes you have to count in your head to get it right.
If you have 3 or 4 seconds left and the team is going to the basket that may be all you can do.

The ideal situation is to stop and correct it, but I have had games where the clock started way late. I had definite knowledge and killed the game while time was on the clock.