Well, think out loud, then, because I don't follow you. [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie, is it EVER possible to travel during a dribble? (hint- R4-15-4NOTE1).

R4-15-2 may be a l'il bit germane too.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think I said he was travelling DURING a dribble. Perhpas my vocab is weak here. Let me try to word it differently. A1 dribbles toward defender. For one of his touches, he taps the ball up over a defender's head. He steps around the defender and touches the ball a second time before it hits the ground. That's not legal, is it? Should I call it something different from a travel, is that what you're getting at? Sheez, all this thinking is starting to make my brain smoke! [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie, by rule, you can't travel during a dribble. The 2nd. tap in the air, also by rule, doesn't end that particular dribble either. You can, however, commit an "illegal dribble" with that 2nd tap. That was Tony's point. It is a violation, but it ain't a "travelling" violation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker


[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Juulie, by rule, you can't travel during a dribble. The 2nd. tap in the air, also by rule, doesn't end that particular dribble either. You can, however, commit an "illegal dribble" with that 2nd tap. That was Tony's point. It is a violation, but it ain't a "travelling" violation.

If there is no player control (by the rule) at these time, can you consider him dribble at all? without dribbling in the first place, can we rule him "double dribble"?

Juulie:

I really have not been following this thread very closely, but I love your use of the word "germane." I just love to be able to use that word.

Have a nice weekend.

MTD, Sr.

Exactly.

The play is not traveling.

It is an illegal dribble.

4-15-2
During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air <B>provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).</B>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ysong

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Quote: Is the really tall player holding the ball? Is the really tall player passing the ball to himself? Or is the really tall player dribbling the ball? :) No, he is not holding the ball. His bat is clean enough to even raise any suspicion of holding. Yes, definately he is passing to himself, but without holding the ball. (or even without the ball resting on his fingers) No, he is not dribbling as the way we usually see. The ball never touches the floor. But it seems like he is bounching the ball between him and the sky. And he is going anywhere he wants, front court, back court, back and forth, longer than 5 seconds, longer than 10 seconds, longer than 24 seconds, until the end of the game. and no one can call time out. I really wish the "rules" can stop him.

ysong, first, I was not replying to you with the response you quoted. I was replying to rainmaker's post on traveling.

Second, you have to be realistic. Have you ever seen a player do this for an extended period of time? A player is not going to be able to do what you suggest for 10 seconds or 24 seconds or until the game is over. That's not a reasonable expectation. Don't worry yourself over such things.

I loved how Rodman got all those rebounds.

Too bad he was weird. He's a great player.

4-15-4 Note 2 governs this play for NFHS rules.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while.

I have another more fundimental question here about rule 4-15-2:"During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).":

How the ball is batted into air? by striking it to the floor first then watching it bounces back, or by tilting the plam skyward to strike it directly upward?

Does the dribble automatically end if the palm tilts skyward?

Thanks.

Of course not.

But why in NCAA, there is one particular case and the ruling:
A.R. 11. A1, while advancing the ball by dribbling, manages to keep a hand in contact with the ball until it reaches its maximum height. A1 maintains such control as the ball descends, pushing it to the playing court at the last moment; however, after six or seven bounces, A1’s hands are in contact with the ball and the palm of the hand on this particular dribble is skyward. RULING: Violation. The ball has come to rest on the hand while the palm and the fingers are facing upward, so the dribble has ended. When the player continues to move or stand still and dribble, the player has committed a violation by dribbling a second time. (See Rule 9-6.)

Thanks.

Ysong, the dribble always ends when the ball has comes to rest. That's the criteria that we use, NOT the position of the hand.

So if it is not travelling, but rather an illegal dribble, what would your signal be for the violation?
__________________________________________________ _______
"One moment you're waiting for the sky to fall; next you're dazzled by the beauty of it all" - BNL "Lovers in a dangerous time"

NFHS signal #17-- illegal dribble. The NCAA signal is the same.

I have never seen a player touch the ball on the backside of a defender. Seems like a fight would result.

I guess you mean behind the defender.

A whistle wouldn't result. :D The ball touching the defender's backside ended the dribble with a loss of player control, and the really tall player can now legally dribble again.

Good point.