When two players compete for a rebound (or a pass), one of the players barely reaches the ball and bats it up to the air again. the two players then jump for the second time. That same player reaches the ball again and bats it slightly away from the other player. realizing his height advantage, this player jumps and bats the ball the third time toward a more favorable spot in a very controlled fashion, while his competitors in the vicinity give up and watch his solo play.

Are all those repeated batting legal moves? when does the batting stop being legal, even with defenders in the vicinity?

Thanks.

Repeatedly batting the ball is legal. As soon as the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) while batting it, the player has now established player control, and is subsequently governed by the applicable rules, such as travelling. The rule of thumb is that you can't travel without having player control of the ball at the same time- i.e holding it.

Think of volleyball. If the player has not yet established control, then any bat that's legal in volleyball, is legal in basketball, without regard to the feet. As soon as you'd call a lift in volleyball, there's player control, and the footwork matters.

Never saw Dennis Rodman play, did you?

Thanks for answering my questions.

The NCAA rule 4-13-4(e) states that "There shall be no team control during:
the period that follows any of these acts (a-d) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control;"

What if a really tall player repeatedly bat the ball without meaningful contests from opponents, so he can bat the ball to anywhere he wants then bat it again before the ball touch the floor or anyone else, does he in fact "in control" the ball even though without holding or dribbling it? Can his controlled batting be considered "self-passing" or even illegal dribbling? Think of it, he can keep batting the ball while run down the full court (assume there are always some opponents around his vicinity). What rule can we apply to stop him?

Thanks.

You declare the bats as controlled by definition, and require a dribble. By the fourth or fifth one, there must have been a hold somewhere along the line. To bat the ball clear down the floor without it touching the floor or any other player would be physically impossible without a hold somewhere.

A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while.

But if he lets the ball hit the ground before touching it again, it's legal and he can continue to dribble.

1) You declare the bats as controlled by definition, and require a dribble. By the fourth or fifth one, there must have been a hold somewhere along the line. To bat the ball clear down the floor without it touching the floor or any other player would be physically impossible without a hold somewhere.

2) A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while. [/B][/QUOTE]
1) What definition allows you to declare the bats as controlled? :confused: It's strictly a judgement call whether player control is ever obtained on any particular tap, not a "must" call after the 4th or 5th tap. And I think that it is actually physically possible to bat or tap the ball down the floor in the air without letting it come to rest too.

2)Why is that germane? The tap over the head is during a dribble. Apples and oranges- and different rules applying to the apples and oranges. If the player was just tapping on a rebound, he certainly could very legally tap the ball over an opponent's head, and then run around that opponent and continue tapping it in the air. N'est-ce pas?

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 5th, 2004 at 09:54 PM]

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him".

1) What definition allows you to declare the bats as controlled? :confused: It's strictly a judgement call whether player contol is ever obtained on any particular tap, not a "must" call after the 4th or 5th tap. And I think that it is actually physically possible to bat or tap the ball down the floor in the air without letting it come to rest too.

2)Why is that germane? The tap over the head is during a dribble. Apples and oranges- and different rules applying to the apples and oranges. If the player was just tapping on a rebound, he certainly could very legally tap the ball over an opponent's head, and then run around that opponent and continue tapping it in the air. N'est-ce pas? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yea, germane wasn't the best word to use. I guess I was thinking the over the head thing is a lot more common than someone keeping the ball in the air 4 or 5 or 6 bats in a row.

I suppose it's theoretically possible for someone to bat the ball up in the air 4 or 5 times in a row without it ever coming down. What kind of touches would they have to be to not constitute a hold? Volleyball type hits would get painful pretty fast, wouldn't they? (I don't even want to consider the arguement about a bat into the air being the start of a dribble or not)

What kind of touches would they have to be to not constitute a hold?
[/B][/QUOTE]I think that's it's strictly a judgement call on the official's part as to whether the ball ever comes to rest or not during the tap, Juulie. If the official thinks that the ball does come to rest, then you're now into pivot feet, legally starting a dribble, etc.

[ [/B][/QUOTE]

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him". [/B][/QUOTE]

So you do not believe there are any *rules* to stop this kind of play at all?

I think that's it's strictly a judgement call on the official's part as to whether the ball ever comes to rest or not during the tap, Juulie. If the official thinks that the ball does come to rest, then you're now into pivot feet, legally starting a dribble, etc. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, and I guess what I was saying is that after 4 or 5 taps, my judgement is pretty sure there was a hold in there somewhere. But then I don't work very high level of volleyball, so maybe I just don't recognize a good tap when I see one.

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him". [/B][/QUOTE]

So you do not believe there are any *rules* to stop this kind of play at all?

[/B][/QUOTE]

You mean specifically a player tap tap tapping (maybe better said bat bat batting) the ball all the way down court?

As JR said once the ball rests on the player's hand you have player control.

But the only time *I* see a player tap tap tapping the ball to himself is when he's fighting with a coupla other players for possession, usually off a rebound. Perfectly legal.

But if a player did, for some reason, tap tap tap the ball all the way down court I have nothing. Assuming he only bat bat batted the ball. :)

Yes, and I guess what I was saying is that after 4 or 5 taps, my judgement is pretty sure there was a hold in there somewhere. But then I don't work very high level of volleyball, so maybe I just don't recognize a good tap when I see one. [/B][/QUOTE]

It is not too hard to tap the ball up with finger tips only without any hold at all. But I still do not think this kind of "repeated controlled tap" is legal, just can not find any ground in the NCAA rule to against it. Any ideas?

Thanks.

How we "stop him" is simple: his coach will eventually jump off the bench and yell at him to stop f***ing around, which will startle him into actually grabbing the ball, at which point the coach will call time & sub him out of the game.

That's how we "stop him". [/B][/QUOTE]

So you do not believe there are any *rules* to stop this kind of play at all? [/B][/QUOTE]

There's no need to stop it. The play is legal.

Traveling? Hmmmm...I don't think so. We better think about this a little more.

Well, think out loud, then, because I don't follow you.

Juulie, is it EVER possible to travel during a dribble? (hint- R4-15-4NOTE1).

R4-15-2 may be a l'il bit germane too.

Is the really tall player holding the ball?

Is the really tall player passing the ball to himself?

Or is the really tall player dribbling the ball?

:)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BktBallRef

Quote:

Is the really tall player holding the ball? Is the really tall player passing the ball to himself? Or is the really tall player dribbling the ball? :)

No, he is not holding the ball. His bat is clean enough to even raise any suspicion of holding.

Yes, definately he is passing to himself, but without holding the ball. (or even without the ball resting on his fingers)

No, he is not dribbling as the way we usually see. The ball never touches the floor. But it seems like he is bounching the ball between him and the sky.

And he is going anywhere he wants, front court, back court, back and forth, longer than 5 seconds, longer than 10 seconds, longer than 24 seconds, until the end of the game. and no one can call time out.

I really wish the "rules" can stop him.

I keep waiting for the punchline in this post....
If the player is that talented that he can tap the ball to himself all over the court without anyone taking it from him then more power to him !!! BTW I would love to actually see this in person as the reactions from the coaches would be priceless !

I am sorry if I make you think this is a joke. By no means, it is not intended to be.

What if a 7-footer in a high school team. He does not need superb talent to acheive that, at least for a couple of "self-passes" to gain unfair advantage.

My appologies if this make you think it is a joke again.

Ysong ,
Please don't think I was trying to belittle your post . I just had a mental picture of a guy running all over the "Backcourt, frontcourt and all over" and the absolute chaos this would cause especially if it was a close game and the defensive team was trying to steal the ball . As a ref I can just imagine the defensive cach screaming at me that it was a travel, backcourt violation etc etc and me just giving him the two shoulder shrug .
Dennis Rodman was a guy I can remember that used this 'self pass" with much success . He was simply able to jump quicker then anyone else when going for a rebound and would tap the ball up 2,3,4 times untill he got to an area he could finally secure the rebound .

If, in your judgement, it's "controlled" then he has possession, does he not? I also was under the impression touching the ball twice before it hits the floor was a double dribble. I believe rainmaker cited the case book source of batting the ball over a defender's head, than touching it again before it hit the floor. Caveat Emptor; I am not very familiar with NCAA.

Well, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think I said he was travelling DURING a dribble. Perhpas my vocab is weak here. Let me try to word it differently. A1 dribbles toward defender. For one of his touches, he taps the ball up over a defender's head. He steps around the defender and touches the ball a second time before it hits the ground. That's not legal, is it? Should I call it something different from a travel, is that what you're getting at? Sheez, all this thinking is starting to make my brain smoke!

Rainmaker said that it was travelling. She didn't say that it was a double dribble.

I don't think so. "Control" isn't the issue. "Player Control" as defined in the rulebook is the issue. "Holding or ddribbling the ball." In tapping the ball he can use as much control as he wants as long as he doesn't "Hold" (think volleyball.) Once he establishes Player Control the rules change a little. Now touching with or without holding becomes an issue.

OK, I'm coming to the conclusion, this is not a travel. The violation should be a double-dribble. Again, using the example of batting the ball over the defender's head and touching it before it hits the floor, this is not a travel, it is a double-dribble. I believe the case book disregards the number of steps taken, it is the fact the ball was touched twice before it hit the ground.
Again, it is judgement whether the player is "fumbling" or not. If he can bat it all the way down the floor, I'd have to be really convinced he was "fumbling"

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

"Control" isn't the issue. "Player Control" as defined in the rulebook is the issue.

Totally agree.

There is no doubt that he is in total control of the ball. but the NCAA rule (and very likely all other rules too) specifically denies that there is a team control at these time, let alone player control.

The NCAA rule 4-13-4(e) states that "There shall be no team control during:
the period that follows any of these acts (a-d) while the ball is being batted (from the vicinity of other players) in an attempt to secure control;"

What do I miss here by concluding that NCAA rules are powerless against this kind of play?

Thanks.

Well, think out loud, then, because I don't follow you. [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie, is it EVER possible to travel during a dribble? (hint- R4-15-4NOTE1).

R4-15-2 may be a l'il bit germane too.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I don't understand what you're saying. I don't think I said he was travelling DURING a dribble. Perhpas my vocab is weak here. Let me try to word it differently. A1 dribbles toward defender. For one of his touches, he taps the ball up over a defender's head. He steps around the defender and touches the ball a second time before it hits the ground. That's not legal, is it? Should I call it something different from a travel, is that what you're getting at? Sheez, all this thinking is starting to make my brain smoke! [/B][/QUOTE]Juulie, by rule, you can't travel during a dribble. The 2nd. tap in the air, also by rule, doesn't end that particular dribble either. You can, however, commit an "illegal dribble" with that 2nd tap. That was Tony's point. It is a violation, but it ain't a "travelling" violation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker


[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

Juulie, by rule, you can't travel during a dribble. The 2nd. tap in the air, also by rule, doesn't end that particular dribble either. You can, however, commit an "illegal dribble" with that 2nd tap. That was Tony's point. It is a violation, but it ain't a "travelling" violation.

If there is no player control (by the rule) at these time, can you consider him dribble at all? without dribbling in the first place, can we rule him "double dribble"?

Juulie:

I really have not been following this thread very closely, but I love your use of the word "germane." I just love to be able to use that word.

Have a nice weekend.

MTD, Sr.

Exactly.

The play is not traveling.

It is an illegal dribble.

4-15-2
During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air <B>provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).</B>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ysong

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef Quote: Is the really tall player holding the ball? Is the really tall player passing the ball to himself? Or is the really tall player dribbling the ball? :) No, he is not holding the ball. His bat is clean enough to even raise any suspicion of holding. Yes, definately he is passing to himself, but without holding the ball. (or even without the ball resting on his fingers) No, he is not dribbling as the way we usually see. The ball never touches the floor. But it seems like he is bounching the ball between him and the sky. And he is going anywhere he wants, front court, back court, back and forth, longer than 5 seconds, longer than 10 seconds, longer than 24 seconds, until the end of the game. and no one can call time out. I really wish the "rules" can stop him.

ysong, first, I was not replying to you with the response you quoted. I was replying to rainmaker's post on traveling.

Second, you have to be realistic. Have you ever seen a player do this for an extended period of time? A player is not going to be able to do what you suggest for 10 seconds or 24 seconds or until the game is over. That's not a reasonable expectation. Don't worry yourself over such things.

I loved how Rodman got all those rebounds.

Too bad he was weird. He's a great player.

4-15-4 Note 2 governs this play for NFHS rules.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rainmaker

Quote:

A more germane question would be what about the really tall player who dribbles up to a defender, bats the ball over the head of the defender, and then touches the ball on the backside of the defender before it hits the ground. That's only one tap, but it's a travel. You'll see it every once in a while.

I have another more fundimental question here about rule 4-15-2:"During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).":

How the ball is batted into air? by striking it to the floor first then watching it bounces back, or by tilting the plam skyward to strike it directly upward?

Does the dribble automatically end if the palm tilts skyward?

Thanks.

Of course not.

But why in NCAA, there is one particular case and the ruling:
A.R. 11. A1, while advancing the ball by dribbling, manages to keep a hand in contact with the ball until it reaches its maximum height. A1 maintains such control as the ball descends, pushing it to the playing court at the last moment; however, after six or seven bounces, A1’s hands are in contact with the ball and the palm of the hand on this particular dribble is skyward. RULING: Violation. The ball has come to rest on the hand while the palm and the fingers are facing upward, so the dribble has ended. When the player continues to move or stand still and dribble, the player has committed a violation by dribbling a second time. (See Rule 9-6.)

Thanks.

Ysong, the dribble always ends when the ball has comes to rest. That's the criteria that we use, NOT the position of the hand.

So if it is not travelling, but rather an illegal dribble, what would your signal be for the violation?
__________________________________________________ _______
"One moment you're waiting for the sky to fall; next you're dazzled by the beauty of it all" - BNL "Lovers in a dangerous time"

NFHS signal #17-- illegal dribble. The NCAA signal is the same.

I have never seen a player touch the ball on the backside of a defender. Seems like a fight would result.

I guess you mean behind the defender.

A whistle wouldn't result. :D The ball touching the defender's backside ended the dribble with a loss of player control, and the really tall player can now legally dribble again.

Good point.

Wow, this must be one of my historical misconceptions. Thanks JR.

Then my next confusion is what exactly "come to rest on the hand" means? I believe every push even in a perfect dribble creates a moment that hand and ball cease to move relative to each other. also when you do a legal cross over, the ball usually sticks to the hand for almost the entire length of the move. on the other hand, in the above case, even when the hand "tilts" skyward (not level and skyward), the ball still has the tendency to roll downward, and the period that the ball stop moving (relative to the hand) is not necessarily longer than that in a legal cross over, but why this one is considered "rest on the hand", while a cross over and a upward batting are not?

Thanks.

Ysong, the dribble always ends when the ball has comes to rest. That's the criteria that we use, NOT the position of the hand. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wow, this must be one of my historical misconceptions. Thanks JR.

Then my next confusion is what exactly "come to rest on the hand" means? I believe every push even in a perfect dribble creates a moment that hand and ball cease to move relative to each other. also when you do a legal cross over, the ball usually sticks to the hand for almost the entire length of the move. on the other hand, in the above case, even when the hand "tilts" skyward (not level and skyward), the ball still has the tendency to roll downward, and the period that the ball stop moving (relative to the hand) is not necessarily longer than that in a legal cross over, but why this one is considered "rest on the hand", while a cross over and a upward batting are not?

[/B][/QUOTE]Ysong, it may not really be that much of an historical misconception on your part. At one time, there was a case play in the rules stating that if the hand dribbling the ball went past the vertical(i.e.-over 90 degrees), then we were supposed to call "palming" or "double dribble" if the player continued dribbling. That concept was changed to what is used now; it is strictly up to each official's judgement as to whether the ball actually does come to rest in the dribbler's hand. If a player is using a cross-over, they can legally continue pushing the ball while maintaining contact with it. Where the cross-over is usually illegal is right at the start of the move, where the player changes directions. If you feel that the ball does come to rest at this time, then this becomes an illegal move. "Upward" batting uses the same criteria. It's strictly your judgement as to whether the ball ever does come to rest at any time during this move. The only rule of thumb really governing the call, imo, is that if there any doubt at all in your mind, don't call it.