My first year officiating was last season. I've been reviwing my performance since then, going over the good, bad and otherwise. I came up with a question about how I handled a bad call from my partner.

This was a Jr High Girls game. Team A was shooting, rebounding, shooting, rebounding, all "in the paint", maybe 4 times. I'm lead. Trail blows whistle, and indicates "3 Seconds"!!

Ball goes the other way, then OB right next to the coach the call went against. As we set up to inbound, she says to me with frustration, "You can't call 3 seconds when we are shooting!" My response was, "I know. I know." She says to let partner know that at the half.

Is this OK? Part of me says I should have directed her to my partner, to let him admit he blew it. Or am I missing something else?

Please advise.

JH

Harsty, you are allowed to say nothing.

Sometimes it's the best course.

That is why these are learning experiences.
 

I would not worry about it, it was a JH game. Now some will try to say that all games are important and they are. But this is where mistakes are made, so I would not get down on yourself. I am sure your partner was newer or not very good, that is why they are there most of the time.

I just would have said, "I am not sure when the call the 3 seconds, before the shot or after." Then go to your partner and ask them directly what they had? Maybe they called it before the shots and were made. Or just maybe they had a brain fart and screwed up. It is just one call in the game, not the end of the world.

Peace

Working with bad refs can be a good thing. It puts you in tough situations like this so that when it happens in the Final Four, you'll know exactly what to do.

I probably would agree w/Dan to say either nothing or say to the coach that you would talk w/your partner to see what he had.

When you do make sure your partner understands that 3 seconds starts over when a shot goes up.

Dealing w/coaches and partners comes over time. It is a learned trait, but don't let it bother you, especially if that was the worst thing that happend to you in your first year.

I lean towards acknowledging the coach.

When the coach makes what is an absolutely true statement (in a polite manner) and is looking for a response and you don't acknowledge it, it only hurts us. Coaches want communication. They only get more agitated if they're ignored.

If your partner got it wrong and everyone (except perhaps him) knows it, there's no reason to cover it up when asked. Your partner put you in that position by not knowing the rules. It's not like judgement where we should back up our partner.

I'd answer the coach, "Yes, you're right. I can't change his call, well discuss it at half-time".

However, if it is not brought up by the coach, I wouldn't bring it up.

It most definitely needs to be discussed at halftime/postgame in hopes that the partner will not propagate his ignorance.

Luther, there's a big difference between a "bad" ref and an "inexperienced' ref. Bad refs usually don't get any better; inexperienced refs usually do. One bad call does not a "bad" ref make. Yes, the official was wrong. Hopefully, someone ended up pointing that out to him so that he didn't make the same mistake again.

Official: "Yes, you're right. I can't change his call, well discuss it at half-time".

Coach: "WHAT!!!!??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN'T CHANGE THE CALL???!!! IF IT'S WRONG THEN FIX IT!!!! FIRST HE SCREWS ME AND NOW YOU SCREW ME!!!!!!"

Hardly seems worth the effort.

The bottom line.
 

No matter what you do, learn from it. There is not always a right and a wrong here. Sometimes slience is golden. Other times you have to say something. I think a lot of this would depend on where I was and what tone the coach was taking with me.

Believe me, you will have many more situations like this if you continue to officiate. Just learn from them and move on. ;)

Peace

I actually would go with Dan on this call, I'm not going to say anything to the coach and at the next chance talk to my partner about the miscall.

I've used this little phrase to a lot of coaches in a lot of different situations and it seems to work pretty well. I think it might apply to your sitch standing next to the coach when in-bounding a ball.

Just let her talk, and when she's done say, "I hear you, coach. Thank you." There's not much more that needs to be said.

Oh,my. That's called "hanging your partner out to dry" imo. I would never, ever say that to a coach. As soon as you say that, your partner just lost all of his credibility for the rest of that game, and maybe even longer in that coach's eyes. I might, under some circumstances, admit to a coach that I might have missed a call, but I'm never going to tell a coach that one of my partners blew one. I'll leave that up to my partner.

I agree, you can't undermind your partner like that, its okay to admit to your own mistakes but to do that to your partner isn't right.

This is why my response is so appropriate. It doesn't admit anything, either yes, or no. It just acknowledges that the coach has expressed an opinion and that it will be considered. It's really very useful. If you look the coach in the eye, give a sort of pleasant half-smile and keep your tone of voice very neutral, it just shuts down everything. And can't be quoted in the newspaper.

Experienced coaches know how to expose an official's weaknesses. Him asking you about that call may be a test to see how "together" you and your partner are. If you hang your partner out to dry, now he knows that he can divide and conquer.

"I hear you coach." does wonders.

This might not be quite right, smoref.

This is exactly right, and it took me literally years to learn this lesson. (I'm not the brightest bulb. . .)

Nobody says you have to talk to the coach. But I would try to find something to say that acknowledges you understand his/her concern and it's something that you can discuss with your partner.

I would not say that your partner blew the call, or that it's too late to fix or anything like that. I would take Juulie's approach, which is non-committal. "I hear you, Coach. We'll talk about it at the half."

This is also very true. An experienced coach is often looking for a way to work an inexperienced official. If you tell him/her that your partner did not, in fact, know the relevant rule, then you've just handed your partner over to that coach on a silver platter -- "Don't you know that rule, either?!?!"

That'll get ugly fast!

If your partner blows something this obvious and you don't acknowledge the coach and admit that the mistake was made but that you will try to rectify it at the half, then you have 'hung your crew, including yourself, out to dry'. There is a difference between selling your partner out and admitting such an obvious mistake. Personally, I might go to my partner on the spot and tell him to change the ruling, if I knew him at all especially if he was a younger guy trying to learn. I would do it in the best possible manner, letting him know it was perfectly alright, just a simple mistake.

For some reason, I never saw the responses in this thread until now.

It's my opinion that my partner hung himself out to dry by not knowing a basic rule that even the mom waiting outside in the car knows.

Like I said, I would never offer this, only if the coach asked about it. To do anything else would be a disservice to the team and would be dishonest. We're out there for the kids 1st. We set a very important example. Our integrety and honesty is of highest importantance and the kids need to see people in authoritative positions demonstrating these traits.

Today's society is full of a bunch of finger pointers and putting blame on someone else or denying culpability. I try to not be one of them. As a crew we make mistakes together. When I make a mistake and am questioned, I admit it. When my partner makes one and I'm asked, I admit it.

I'm not talking about anything that involves judgement...just absolutes. If it involves whether a player did or didn't step on the line or why he did/didn't call a foul, I'll either confirm my partner's call, if I saw it and know why he called it, or refer them to my partner if I don't.

It's not supposed to be <em>us against them</em>. I think the coaches trust and respect us more if we appear to be working with them and not appear unapproachable by brushing them off all the time. This includes addmitting our mistakes.

Also, this was a JH game. The point is learning and improvement...for both the teams and often the officals. It's OK to show them we're working on it.

Make the case even more extreme. Partner blows whistle and calls a backcourt violation during a free throw or calls traveling on a player who doesn't have the ball (and is not near it), or calls a player control foul on the player dribbling the ball in the backcourt when every other player is 30 feet away.

I'm for fixing it.
 

When it is something that is so obviously mis-applied, I'd lean toward getting together.

Even if that means going to the arrow for an inadvertent whistle, if team A was not in possesion when the whistle blew. The crew keeps credibility by copping to the error.

Let's compound the situation. Suppose your partner continues to make erroneous 3-second calls thinking the count continues during shooting/rebounding sequence. How do you handle it? Personally, I don't think you can wait until halftime.

And how would you handle the following real-life scenario. I was doing 3-man crew in men's league game and C makes 3-second call on player standing at foul line. He eroneously thought that was part of the lane and was ADAMANT about being correct. I had done some JV games with this official and he was a pretty decent official so I was surprised by his lack of knowledge in this particular case. How do you handle this situation without selling your partner down the river? I can tell you we couldn't wait until halftime to correct.

How would I handle this? Depends.

If I was L I become new T. If I was T I become new L.

In any case I jog down court.

Might ask him about it during a timeout, but right now I'm jogging down court.

At a dead ball:

<LI>"Partner? If you stop making that call for the rest of the half, until we can review the book, I'll buy the first <U>and</U> second beverage."

mick

It is not up to yo uto point out your partner's mistakes to the coaches. You are a team, and by you selling out your partner, you're eliminating the amount of trust that was between you. If I see my partner blow a call, I won't tell the coach that, but if the coach questions it to me I will say, "Coach I hear you, but I didn't make the call, as it was out of my primary, you could call a time out if you'd like a word with my partner or wait until half time to discuss it." Usually the coach doesn't want to waste a timeout and forget's about it by the time half rolls around.

Never ever sell out your partner, and always support his/her calls. We're not out to over-rule eachother. If someone makes a mistake on a call, leave it be, unless it happens to deal with the arrow, or who touched the ball last when it goes out of bounds. Judgement calls like fouls and violations cannot be debated or overruled by the non-calling official. From the perspective of a younger official, by over-ruling my call, you're sending a message, the message that i'm incompetent. I never change a call, the first signal I use is the one i stick with. If I blow it, I blow it, but no one is ever going to get me to change my mind. The proper situation to bring this up would be in the post game, and just go over it. Don't make an fool of your partner by overruling his call infront of a gym full of people.

Re: I'm for fixing it.
 

Agreed...fixing it the first option.

However, if the whistle is blown while the ball is in the air for one of the shots, there is no fix that is fully equitable if the shot misses. The only solution is to go to the arrow. Someone gets the ball. If it was the team that was going to get the rebound, they lose the arrow out of the deal. If it was the team not likely to get the rebound, the would get a possession they didn't deserve at the cost of the arrow.

Going to your partner to fix it, however, is just the same as telling the coach he got it wrong. It says the same thing by action instead of words.


I had a partner, this summer, that granted the defense a timeout while the ball was live. He knew better but just reflexively blew the whistle without verifying who was requesting it and if they were permitted to do so.

The coach of the team with the ball was puzzled both by the call and why they still got the timeout anyway. He wanted an explanation. Not giving him an answer when he had a legitimate beef would have probably ended up in a T. The only thing that could be said was that it was indeed a mistake but now that it's been made, they get the timeout anyway since it is now a dead ball. I was there in front of him and everyone knew it was wrong. He was asking me. I might was well be the one to answer him rather than calling my partner over and looking like I'm ducking the question.

Mick, I DEFINITELY like your answer. If my partner(s) did that for me, what with all the mistakes I've made over the years, I'd be feelin no pain! LOL

Dan, problem was player at foul line (6'10" and former D2 player) is looking at me all perplexed wondering why he is being called for 3 seconds. We needed to make sure the same call wasn't amde again because they were running plays off the high post.

My answer stands, even if the player at the foul line used to be Michael Jordan.

ooops. Michael who?

"...Used to be Michael Jordan." - not too bad, Dan! :)

<font color = red>Your answer fails to meet the suggested parameters of having to make it stop before the half.
Your answer more closely follows common reality than it does the given sitch.</font>

mick

It's my opinion that my partner hung himself out to dry by not knowing a basic rule that even the mom waiting outside in the car knows.

[/B][/QUOTE]Yes, your partner certainly did do it to himself. And now,if I'm his partner, I'm gonna try and help him, train him, talk to him, holler at him at halftime if I have to, encourage him, berate him- maybe, even when I'm wearing a different hat, have to be the one to tell him that officiating ain't the right gig for him- but I'm gonna keep it between us officials while I'm trying to make sure that it doesn't happen again. I'm not ever gonna make him look like an incompetent idiot in front of that coach, and all the fans in the gym also. And how about a case where your partner may have had another reason for making that call? Maybe it's a very slight possibility that there's a reasonable explanation, but it's one that you'll never know about now because you didn't even bother to ask him before telling everyone in the world that he screwed up.

If the call is that bad, I might go talk to him about maybe changing it. However, personally I am also never going to tell a coach anything before I do talk to my partner.

Mick and JR - based on your responses - "you're a good man, Charley Brown"

Hmmm.
 

:confused:
Was I just harrassed or hugged?
mick

Re: Hmmm.
 

Mick, definitely the latter. There is no "I" in T-E-A-M. :)

I would team with anyone on this forum.
If I was not in the team, then I would only be a fan.
mick

Mick, I DEFINITELY like your answer. If my partner(s) did that for me, what with all the mistakes I've made over the years, I'd be feelin no pain! LOL [/B][/QUOTE]

I was thinking, if I'd been that partner some games, Mick would be flat broke!

I was thinking, if I'd been that partner some games, Mick would be flat broke! [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't think so, Jewel.
I would be very, very surprised if you passed that "Adamant" test.
Maybe evement, but not adamant.
mick

Don't think so, Jewel.
I would be very, very surprised if you passed that "Adamant" test.
Maybe evement, but not adamant.
mick [/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe I wouldn't pass, but if I knew what was coming I'd at least try!

From the perspective of someone in the middle as far as experience goes, I'd say if you don't correct my call (or at least address it later), you're saying I'm not worth the effort. If I kick a call, I want to know about it. Although I agree that a conversation with the coach is sticky at best, and I'd probably defer to my partner. "Coach, apparently he saw something I didn't."

That said, ref18, I find your statement that "I never change a call, the first signal I use is the one I stick with" interesting.
It's like a late whistle, in my opinion. The key is to get the call right, not to look smooth. If I go up with a foul signal and realize immediately that A1 traveled first, I'm going with the violation. If I go up with a PC signal and decide in midstream that B1 was not in LGP, I'm changing the call. If anyone questions you, you simply say, "The call was right."

Don't be afraid to make the right call, even if it makes you look a bit awkward for a second. Remember, we're there for the players, not to look good.

Adam

Camron:

I agree with your response but only to a point. Yes, acknowledge the coach, but do not tell him your partner blew the call even if you are 200% sure his call was not correct. Rather, tell the coach that you will talk with your partner the first chance you get and have your partner get back to him.

MTD, Sr.