Net wraps around rim revisited

[zebraman]

Originally posted by Ron Pilo
Zman- Did you ask me? Wha did you think of the camp? clinicians? classroom? etc.

Yes Ron, I did ask you. You said that depending on the situation, you may or may not stop play. Everyone else I asked said they stop play right away. My current thinking is that I'm going to stop play unless I see an obvious attempt at inbounding fast and running by team B.

I thought the camp was great. I feel VERY comfortable doing 3-person now (no, I didn't say that I'm an expert at it... just that I am comfortable now). I just hope that our schools cooperate and agree to do a lot of regular season games as 3-person. Otherwise, our "high school only refs" have absolutely zero chance to do well at state... and our assoc has always done very well at state in 2-person.

Clinicians were very good. The camp was different than in past years because the focus was almost 100% on 3-person rather than working on the other facets of the game.. and that was the intent of this camp so I thought it was well done. Classroom was pretty good too.

Z

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
If Team A caused the net to stick by scoring in the basket, then when they get the ball back they can request to have the situation fixed. Otherwise, they can continue to play the game.

Many times stopping to fix the net gives the team now on defense an added advantage to set the press up.

My take is play on.

There are many odd situations that may take away an opportunity for a quick inbounds before the defense sets up a press.

Ball, after dropping through the net, hits A3's foot and bounces to halfcourt, the 10th row, under the bleachers, etc....we blow the whistle and retrieve the ball.

Little Joey on the first row spills his popcorn onto the floor. We stop the game to address it.

The clock appears to be malfunctioning...we stop the game to address it.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by bigwhistle
If Team A caused the net to stick by scoring in the basket, then when they get the ball back they can request to have the situation fixed. Otherwise, they can continue to play the game.

Many times stopping to fix the net gives the team now on defense an added advantage to set the press up.

My take is play on.

How is it an advantage? If they are pressing, they'd be pressing after the made shot anyway. It could be considered a disadvantage, because the element of surprise is lost.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

I stop the game to fix a net everytime when the action permits. It nearly always occurs in conjunction with a made basket (causing a dead ball).

The rules are quite clear that the net is supposed to be suspended below the ring. To not be properly suspended yields a potential advantage to the team defending that basket.

A parallel but more extreme example...

Player A1 dunks the ball over B1 and, due to safety, hangs onto the rim until B1 has cleared away. Unfortunately, the breakaway rim doesn't return to level. Sure, A may still be able make a basket, perhaps most of the time. But, would you not stop the game to get it fixed.

I don't see how the net is any different. The court/equipment is not in the required condition.

It's too bad if team B wanted a fast break. You don't always get what you want.

For the record, I agree with Camron that a wrapped net constitutes an illegal basket and that the game must be stopped until the situation is corrected.
1-10-1 "Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in length,[/b] suspended from beneath the ring[b]."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

For the record, I agree with Camron that a wrapped net constitutes an illegal basket and that the game must be stopped until the situation is corrected.
1-10-1 "Each basket shall consist of a single metal ring, 18 inches in inside diameter, its flange and braces, and a white-cord 12-mesh net, 15 to 18 inches in length, suspended from beneath the ring."

That rule is completely irrelevant. It doesn't say anything about WHEN the net has to be fixed. The timing to be used to fix a tangled net is simply not covered in the rules, and anyything said by anybody about what should be done is their opinion only.

[tomegun]

There are so many variables to consider I can't see how one thing could be done regarding the net. Plus, like mentioned earlier, it isn't specifically covered in the rules. If I was a player or a coach I wouldn't want the game stopped. I would try to make sure the nets on my home court would not get caught up. I like to force the tempo, force the pace and force the ball down my opponents throat. Stopping play for the net interrupts this. I feel like going out and playing some lunch ball right now! This is the greatest game on earth.

[Nevadaref]

tomegun,
Seeing your post on this thread reminded me of a conversation that I had with the LV assignor at the last HS state tournament. He told me that the NCAA sent out a memo which instructed the officials not to stop the game for a wrapped net. The reasoning was that many schools were purposely putting longer nets on their rings which would get hung up so that the opposing team could not quickly counter after a made goal.
I have searched for this memo, but never have seen it. I found it particularly interesting because of my belief that you must stop the game for an illegal basket.
It gave me something to think about.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
That rule is completely irrelevant. It doesn't say anything about WHEN the net has to be fixed.

JR,
IMO this is a pretty silly argument. You have something that is part of the court/playing environment, which does not meet the specifications in the rules, but yet you choose to adopt the attitude of "I'll fix it later."

My opinion is that if any playing equipment doesn't meet specifications the game must be stopped immediately. If you allow play to continue, you are not playing the contest under the specified conditions.

I think that the reason the rules book doesn't specify when to fix anything is because it is implied that it should be taken care of right away.

I came up with some questions for all of us to think about:
1. After a goal in a boys game, a player points out to you that the ball is a girls ball. Do you wait until the next "natural stopping point" to fix it or switch ball right away?

2. If a successful dunk were to twist a backboard, say 10 degrees, would you stop the game right away?

3. If after a successful dunk at a goal supported by a portable backstop the apparatus were to fold a bit such that the ring lowers to 9' 6", would you wait until play returned to that end of the court to stop the game?

4. During play the lights in the gym dim significantly, but do not go completely out. You can still see, but the lighting is certainly not uniform or adequate. Do you play on until the next dead ball when the clock is stopped?

5. During play some kids running around under the bleachers kick the electric cord for the scoreboard causing it to blank out. The control box at the table is still functioning and keeping the time and score, but there is now no visible clock or score for anyone not seated at the table. Do you wait for a violation or a foul to happen to stop the game?

I look forward to everyone's thoughts on these.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

JR,
IMO this is a pretty silly argument. You have something that is part of the court/playing environment, which does not meet the specifications in the rules, but yet you choose to adopt the attitude of "I'll fix it later."

My opinion is that if any playing equipment doesn't meet specifications the game must be stopped immediately. If you allow play to continue, you are not playing the contest under the specified conditions.

I think that the reason the rules book doesn't specify when to fix anything is because it is implied that it should be taken care of right away.

I came up with some questions for all of us to think about:
1. After a goal in a boys game, a player points out to you that the ball is a girls ball. Do you wait until the next "natural stopping point" to fix it or switch ball right away?

2. If a successful dunk were to twist a backboard, say 10 degrees, would you stop the game right away?

3. If after a successful dunk at a goal supported by a portable backstop the apparatus were to fold a bit such that the ring lowers to 9' 6", would you wait until play returned to that end of the court to stop the game?

4. During play the lights in the gym dim significantly, but do not go completely out. You can still see, but the lighting is certainly not uniform or adequate. Do you play on until the next dead ball when the clock is stopped?

5. During play some kids running around under the bleachers kick the electric cord for the scoreboard causing it to blank out. The control box at the table is still functioning and keeping the time and score, but there is now no visible clock or score for anyone not seated at the table. Do you wait for a violation or a foul to happen to stop the game?

I look forward to everyone's thoughts on these.

Very simple thought from me.Nevada. I gave up reading your response above as soon as I found out that my argument was labelled "silly" by you, while your "opinion" is correct. Well, your "opinion" isn't backed up by anything written anywhere in the rule book that I know of. If you ever do find anything in the rules that will back up your "opinion", or if the the NFHS ever does issue a definitive ruling on this particular play, please let us know. Until then, your "opinion" is exactly the same as mine- just a personal opinion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Until then, your "opinion" is exactly the same as mine- just a personal opinion.

True, but at least it's not silly!

[dblref]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
tomegun,
Seeing your post on this thread reminded me of a conversation that I had with the LV assignor at the last HS state tournament. He told me that the NCAA sent out a memo which instructed the officials not to stop the game for a wrapped net. The reasoning was that many schools were purposely putting longer nets on their rings which would get hung up so that the opposing team could not quickly counter after a made goal.
I have searched for this memo, but never have seen it. I found it particularly interesting because of my belief that you must stop the game for an illegal basket.
It gave me something to think about.

Seems pretty stupid for a school to do this. If they are putting longer nets on BOTH baskets, then it works against them also. If they are just putting it on one basket, it will also work against them for a half.

[tomegun]

dblref, this is an old trick. A team puts the net that will get hung up on the end near their bench. In the second half they can still run and will have time to get back on defense while the net is fixed over and over. It might sound far fetched but in the past it has been done. Teams used to use this tactic against the Showtime Lakers.

Nevadaref, I think your examples are a little far fetched. There are examples opposite of what you are saying when you do wait. Like if a player gets hurt and the other team is on a break away from the hurt player. Plus, if some of your examples happen during a shot, break or foul are you going to stop the game? In some cases yes but in some cases no you will not. Does the net hinder the normal flow of the game? 99 times out of 100 no. Does not having the backboard, rim height, correct ball or running score hinder the flow of the game? 99 times out of 100 yes. By the way, the LV assigner absolutely hates stopping play for the net so he is not a good reference anyway. He hates it to a point where it is funny.

[Camron Rust]

The intentional use of long nets that get hung up could even be used on both end by a team that simple didn't like to run or was less fit than the opponent. They'd get the extra breaks to rest just a moment and have time to get whatever defense set up they way. For some teams that like to push it up the floor quickly after a made basket, it would be a detriment.

[zebraman]

My initial post was only concerning a "once in a great while" net wrap that rarely occurs. If it happened more frequently, I would ask game management to find some new nets. We seem to have gone off on a tangent here (imagine that).

Z

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
It is late at night, I do not have any of my rules books in front of me because I am already packed to leave on Friday for the YBOA Boys' Nationals in Lakeland, Florida, and I intend to go to bed as soon as I make my post.


1) The NCAA addressed this problem a few years ago. I cannot remember off hand which school year, other than to say that the NCAA issued an in-season bulletin detailing the protocol that was to followed for such a situation.

2) Prior to the NCAA in-season bulletin, both the NFHS and NCAA followed the same interpretation. And here is where the interpretation gets murky. I have only antecdotal information from two sources: A rules interpreter from Florida, and arules interpreter from Canada.
While officiating in the YBOA Girls' Nationals in Orlando, Florida, in July 1993, I stopped the game to fix the net. A local rules interpreter told me that was wrong. I asked him what was the correct procedure. He told me that the FloridaHSAA had received an interpretaion from the NFHS that the net should not be fixed until the first naturally occuring dead ball, stopped clock situation.
While attending the 1993 IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters Conference I posed the question (including the information that was giving to me by the Florida rules interpreter) to a group of fellow interpreters at lunch one day. A rules interpreter from Canada told me that the NBCUSC (National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada, the predessor the NFHS and NCAA rules committees) had issued an interpretaion over 35 years ago that was identical to the information that was giving to me by the Florida intepreter.

As I stated my information is only antecdotal and about the time that the NCAA made its in-season interpretation, I tried to get Mary Struckhoff do an investigation of the NFHS archives to clarify this situation, but nothing ever came of it. And that is where it stands today.

I suppose that this BALD, OLD GEEZER (please read the aaargh! thread) should write to Mary next month and see if she will try to clarify this situation.

Good night everyone. Have a nice weekend.

MTD, Sr.

I sent an email to Mary Struckhoff (NFHS), Ed Bilik (NCAA Men's), and Barb Jacobs (NCAA Women's) just after January 01, 2000 (yes, you read the year correctly, 2000). My email contained the information concerning the information that I had received from the two officials in 1993. I requested that they review the NFHS and NCAA archives for a rules intepretation. I have yet to received an answer from Mary Struckhoff, but I did receive and following email from Barb Jacobs:



[email protected] Printed: Sunday, April 4, 2004 11:25 PM


________________________________________
From : Barbara Jacobs
Sent : Tuesday, January 25, 2000 2:34 PM
To : [email protected]
Subject : Rules Interpretation
________________________________________


Mark,

I have spoken with Ed Bilik and we both agree on the following interpretation:

Net caught on rim after a made basket: How to handle

1. If there is a basket attendant supplied by game management, that person
can get the net down as play continues to the other end of the court. If
play stays at this basket's end (press situation) officials should blow the
whistle immediately and get the net down. There would be a possibility of
a quick steal and a shot at the basket with the net hung up.

2. If there is no basket attendant, officials should stop play
immediately and get the net down.

3. If this is a re-occurring situation through out the game, game
management should be notified by the officials to change the net at half
time or after the game.

This is the interpretation that went out to officials, coaches and
administrators on January 11, 2000.

Hope this clarifies it for you. The high school rules are different from
ours and Mary Struckoff will have to give you their interp.

Barbara Jacobs
NCAA Secretary/Rules Editor
National Interpreter


The interpretation that Barb gives in her email can be found in the NCAA Women's Bulletin of January 11, 2000. The interpreation has never appeared in an NCAA Men's Bulletin, but according to Barb, it applies to men's games as well.

While the NCAA Women's Bulletin of January 11, 2000, reverses NBCUSC's "original" interpretation as far as it applies to games played under NCAA rules, there is still a question with regard to games played under NFHS rules. I hope that I can convince Mary Struckhoff to do some research and give us a definite answer concering this problem.

MTD, Sr.