3-Point Shot

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Actually, since we don't signal anything on a 2 point basket, the two arms really only signal the extra point.

This premise is debatable, at best. If raised arms only indicated one point, then we would give the touchdown signal after a successful FT. I don't think that flies.

[Adam]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

This premise is debatable, at best. If raised arms only indicated one point, then we would give the touchdown signal after a successful FT. I don't think that flies.

Ah, but you see, the raised arms indicate that the basket is worth an extra point. If there were a rule that allowed for a two point free throw, say, if the shooter shot it with her eyes closed, then we would signal a touchdown to signify the extra point.
Back to the 3 pt shot. How many points is a live action (with defense fully engaged) basket worth if the official does not signal anything? Two. If we give the signal, then it's worth the extra point. Therefore, the signal is worth one point.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

Ah, but you see, the raised arms indicate that the basket is worth an extra point. If there were a rule that allowed for a two point free throw, say, if the shooter shot it with her eyes closed, then we would signal a touchdown to signify the extra point.
Back to the 3 pt shot. How many points is a live action (with defense fully engaged) basket worth if the official does not signal anything? Two. If we give the signal, then it's worth the extra point. Therefore, the signal is worth one point.

I think he's got ya, Chuck!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
If there were a rule that allowed for a two point free throw, say, if the shooter shot it with her eyes closed, then we would signal a touchdown to signify the extra point.

And if dogs had wings, then I'd be king. The fact is there is no such rule, so your contention is moot. We have no way of knowing how such a situation would actually be indicated. We might indicate with the touchdown signal, or they might reserve the touchdown signal for a 3-point shot and invent a new signal.

How many points is a live action (with defense fully engaged) basket worth if the official does not signal anything? Two. If we give the signal, then it's worth the extra point. Therefore, the signal is worth one point.

I just disagree. The official signals nothing when the basket is worth 2 points, but the official also signals nothing when the basket is worth 1 point. The fact is that when the arms go up, 3 points go on the board. The less convoluted conclusion is that the signal is worth 3 points.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I think he's got ya, Chuck!

Not by a long-shot, Juulie

[mick]

Still what Snaqwells says.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Ahhh...you're a theoritician.

I'm an engineer, maybe you can tell us how to raise an arm and 2/3? I mean a human arm of course.

I can show you how to raise 2/3 of an arm. I have to warn you, however, that it might hurt a little.

Bruno, Vinnie, help the man out...

[Camron Rust]

For those of us who've been around a few years, you might remember that a two point basket was once signaled by a horizontal arm with two fingers extended and a made free throw was signaled by the same signal but with only one finger. The difference was directly discernable from the context of the signal.

However, when the 3-pointer was introduced a new signal was needed. The difference between two fingers and three fingers was too subtle from long distances. A very clear signal was needed.


B.S. mode on...

Why not borrow one from football. Of course in football, that signal is worth either 1, 2, 3, or 6 depending on the reason. Two are from having a player possess the ball beyond the goal line (2 and 6). Two are from propelling the ball through a goal (1 and 3). The extra point is akin to a FT while the field goal is akin to a....field goal.

Still we have to consider the signal which precedes this one, the half raised single arm with 3 fingers extended. That one is actually worth 0. Using this as a reference point, rasing the arms the rest of the way is work 3 points. So, a full arm is worth two points. One and a half arms are worth 3.

B.S. mode off...

Thanks you for allowing my little trip through fantasy land.

[mick]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Thanks you for allowing my little trip through fantasy land.

Camron,
I hope you said "Hi" to Dan and JR for me.
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick

Camron,
I hope you said "Hi" to Dan and JR for me.
mick

Could be wrong, but I always thought that this was Chuck's signal for a 2-point shot:

This oughta turn this thread in a different direction!

[Adam]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

And if dogs had wings, then I'd be king. The fact is there is no such rule, so your contention is moot. We have no way of knowing how such a situation would actually be indicated. We might indicate with the touchdown signal, or they might reserve the touchdown signal for a 3-point shot and invent a new signal.

I just disagree. The official signals nothing when the basket is worth 2 points, but the official also signals nothing when the basket is worth 1 point. The fact is that when the arms go up, 3 points go on the board. The less convoluted conclusion is that the signal is worth 3 points.

One needn't look very deep to see the logical answer to this, Chuck. If a shot goes in from the perimeter, how many points are given if the ref does not signal?
If a shot goes in from the perimeter and the ref raises his hands, it's worth an extra point for distance.
two arms up = one point

Adam

[Adam]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
For those of us who've been around a few years, you might remember that a two point basket was once signaled by a horizontal arm with two fingers extended and a made free throw was signaled by the same signal but with only one finger. The difference was directly discernable from the context of the signal.

However, when the 3-pointer was introduced a new signal was needed. The difference between two fingers and three fingers was too subtle from long distances. A very clear signal was needed.


B.S. mode on...

Why not borrow one from football. Of course in football, that signal is worth either 1, 2, 3, or 6 depending on the reason. Two are from having a player possess the ball beyond the goal line (2 and 6). Two are from propelling the ball through a goal (1 and 3). The extra point is akin to a FT while the field goal is akin to a....field goal.

Still we have to consider the signal which precedes this one, the half raised single arm with 3 fingers extended. That one is actually worth 0. Using this as a reference point, rasing the arms the rest of the way is work 3 points. So, a full arm is worth two points. One and a half arms are worth 3.

B.S. mode off...

Thanks you for allowing my little trip through fantasy land.

Now I need some medication.

Adam

[Edited by Snaqwells on Jul 16th, 2004 at 03:33 PM]

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
One needn't look very deep to see the logical answer to this, Chuck. If a shot goes in from the perimeter, how many points are given if the ref does not signal?
If a shot goes in from the perimeter and the ref raises his hands, it's worth an extra point for distance.
two arms up = one point

I see your point here, Adam, I really do. It's just wrong, that's all. Camron provided the historical perspective needed to prove the point. I should've thought of it previously.

Until about the 1996-97 season (Mark DeNucci can probably nail down the exact season for us), each type of basket had its own signal. A FT was designated by extending the arm parallel to the floor with one finger extended. A 2-point FG was designated by the extended arm with 2 fingers extended. And the 3-point FG was designated by the touchdown signal. So historically, the 3-point signal was a separate signal, and was necessary to distinguish it from other types of scores. Back then, there was never any thought that it simply indicated awarding an extra point. It was telling the scorer to put 3 points in the book.

The fact that the 1- and 2-point signals have been eliminated doesn't change the value of the touchdown signal. It tells the scorer, "that was three!"

[Adam]

I know, Chuck. I was just engaging in some rhetorical goofing. I remember those days, I had just started reffing. Back when the lead would mirror the trail on a 3 point hoop, and the two would switch if they got caught working weak side.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
So historically, the 3-point signal was a separate signal, and was necessary to distinguish it from other types of scores. Back then, there was never any thought that it simply indicated awarding an extra point. It was telling the scorer to put 3 points in the book.

The fact that the 1- and 2-point signals have been eliminated doesn't change the value of the touchdown signal.

Great point, Chuck. Being a youngster myself, , I don't remember those "good ol' days", so it hadn't occured to me to think in those terms.

It's comparable to calling the second shot of the one-and-one a bonus. Why aren't both the first and second the bonus? Because originally every foul gave the offended team one shot. The fact of shooting wasn't the bonus. The second shot was. But since we don't give a shot for every foul any more, it sounds strange.