Hi All,

Just came across your forum when surfing around today.

Has anyone here had experience refereeing outside of the USA? I have been refereeing for 10 years in Australia and wouldn't mind bouncing a few ideas off you guys.

Just remember if it is not FIBA, we don't see it in Australia..... There is no hallowed circle of exile painted under our hoops..... :-)

I referee in our ABA (2nd highest league in Australia) and have refereed finals at numerous national championships. I would just like to hear a little bit about the refereeing scene in the states and has there been cases where international referees have been successfully integrated into the USA circuit?

I look forward to reading your replies

Cheers,

Daniel

Oh, Duane!!!!! You still lurking around here?

Hi Dan, and welcome to the forum. Most of us here officiate in the USA, but you'll also find many Canadians here, who are familiar with FIBA rules. Duane is an official in Australia, but he hasn't been around much lately. Hopefully, you'll get your FIBA fix here. :)

Although, do we really need another Dan? ;)

Hi Dan, I'm from Hong Kong, China & have also ref'd in Canada for 8 yrs. I love learning ball from everywhere.

Welcome Dan. Someday hope to visit your beautiful country.

I officiate High School basketball in Georgia (Atlanta). Unfortunately, cannot answer your question regarding international refs over in this country, other than Canadians. Attended camp in June and did a couple of games with Canadian (then US) trained official who was outstanding in my book.

Other than letting players "camp out" in the lane, what are the major differences between FIBA and US rules? And why did FIBA change the rules?
__________________________________________________ ______
"If you desire many things, many things will seem but a few."--Benjamin Franklin

1) In FIBA there is no cylinder above the ring; once ball touches the ring, anybody can go for the ball.
2) Timeouts have to go thru the scorebench

Welcome to the board Aussie Dan.

I have been refereeing FIBA rules in Canada for a few years.
I enjoy discussing FIBA rules, just indicated as such or else most will believe that it is Federation rules (the ones used in US high schools.

I once posted a FIBA quiz for my American counterparts. They took to it like fish to land.

Cheers.

Jay

Please remember the game was invented and played for many years in the States.

No basket interference - that would be a definite advantage to American players since so many of them play above the rim.

Can anyone tell me WHY other countries felt obligated to change the basektball rules. It would be like the United States changing soccer rules then using their rules as the standard in international soccer play.

The game was invented in the United States by a CANADIAN!

BTW, I referee FIBA rules here in Canada, but I do prefer using Federation or NCAA rules.

Jay [/B][/QUOTE]

The game was invented in the United States by a CANADIAN!

BTW, I referee FIBA rules here in Canada, but I do prefer using Federation or NCAA rules. [/B][/QUOTE]

YES, good point Jay. Some other facts about James Naismith and basketball

In 1891 he introduced the game of basketball as a winter indoor sport in Springfield, Mass. And in 1894, he introduced the football helmet for American Football.

The 1st game of basketball was played on December 21st, 1891, after spending 2 weeks preparing the rules and objectives as an assignment.

Basketball was an assignment by his mentor, Luther H. Gulick to interest the incorrigibles. He was asked to come up with an indoor game free of rough play for the football and lacrosse players who were restless during the winter.

He invented the game at the YMCA in Springfield, Mass.

The original object used in the 1st game was a SOCCER BALL HA!

After his initial request for 2 small square boxes, the custodian could only come up with 2 peach baskets, which lead to the naming of the game.

The 1st game featured much confusion and many penalties and ended in a 1-0 score.

The 1st teams were comprised of members of a class at the Springfield YMCA training school. There were 18 people in his class therefore 9 played on each side.

The game of basketball spread almost naturally s many of the students went their separate ways for Christmas and introduced the game in their hometowns as early as January 1892.

G'day Daniel,

As you may have heard - I am the "resident" Aussie here. Although I have only just returned to refereeing after an 18 month break. Where abouts are you? I lived in Sydney up until 2 years ago, when I moved to Tweed Heads. Anyway, gotta go teach a class - but will check in more regularly from now on.

Later

Welcome here, Daniel!
mick (just another seppo) ;)

Have you guys out east switched away from FIBA yet, because I heard that both Quebec, Alberta Sasketchewan, and Nova Scotia are going to the CIS rules this fall.

I could not confirm that, I don't know. I live in New Brunswick and we are switching to CIS (which is basically NCAA Men's)starting with the 2005-2006 season.

Also, NCAA Men Supervisor of Officials Hank Nichols is on the FIBA panel, so the college game is creeping to the international game.

Big differences (reading):

Free throws - If the free-throw shooter doesn't commit a violation, and it goes in, count the basket and ignore all violations by other players. Violations matter only if the shot doesn't go in. Also, if the shooter makes the violation, the basket is no good.

NEW: Possession Arrow - Also used to start overtime.

"There is no hallowed circle of exile painted under our hoops..... :-)"

NEW: The European professional game under the auspices of the ULEB and the various European professional federations (source: Euroleague.net) will start enforcing the NBA Block/Charge zone starting this year. That league also has a jump ball under NBA procedures. Neither is used in FIBA.

Time Outs are to be called, yes, by the coach, but only on a dead ball or when scored against.

NEW: No substitution restrictions except in final two minutes of a game, after a successful basket, team scored against may substitute. If such team does, other team may.

The Lane: Established in 1956.

So, Rasheed Wallace, Sprewell, Mark Cuban and others ARE playing in the original spirit of basketball!! Interesting!

PS Thanks for all the info, Jack, I'm going to quote you sometime in the future.

Bobby,
Possession arrow to start overtime? Is this new for 2004-2005 because last year the OT started with a Jump Ball.

Just a question about FIBA, do the rule changes come out before or after the Olympic games??

The last rule changes that I am aware of were for 2003-2004.
So I can only assume the Olympics will be governed by these rules. Quite different than what NBA players are used to by the way.

I also referee FIBA in the province of Québec in Canada. We will be going to NCAA rules starting with the 2005-06 season. So this is our last season with FIBA rules.

As far as I know all extra periods are started with a jumpball

FIBA rules
 

Friends,

FIBA rules and rules at various levels in the US have become almost identical. The most significant difference as someone noted below is that there is no cylinder, i.e. once the ball hits the ring anyone can touch. Of course, the 3-second area is trapezoid as opposed to rectangle - but there is no "camping out" in the 3-second zone any more than in US ball.

The rest of the differences are for the most part technical, i.e. time outs, substitutions, jump balls, etc. Even the 24-second rule has been adjusted to make it identical with thhe US rule. The foul rules are exactly the same - though you sometimes wouldn't know it when watching an int'l game as consistency and cultural difference create other issues.

Todd from Jerusalem

New FIBA rules
 

New FIBA rules take effect after the Olympics and are generally in force for 4 years, i.e. until the next Olympics. Generally there are little or no changes during the 4 years.

Hey Aussie_Dan
yep ive had experience outside of USA,
i ref in western austraila so use FIBA rules ;)

Re: FIBA rules
 

The rules may seem somewhat similar to the average fan, but when you are officiating, there are tons of differences. I currently use FIBA when I do High School games and NCAA for our college games.

Here are some of the differences:

1. FIBA, the ball becomes live when it is touched by a player on a jump ball. NCAA, when it leaves the ref's hand.

2. Dunking in warm ups, allowed in FIBA.

3. In FIBA, there are no exceptions for returning the ball to the backcourt (during throw ins or when making a defensive play)

4. In FIBA, when the ball or any part of the player's body is in the front court, the ball has FC status (no three point rule when dribbling)

5. Shot clock is 24 seconds and bringing ball to the FC is 8 seconds

6. In FIBA, no imaginary cylinder above the basket. Goaltending is not allowed but once the ball hits the rim and is bouncing above it, there are no restrictions.

7. Slapping the backboard can be basket interference if the ref feels the ball would have gone in. But it would not be a technical foul in FIBA.

8. 3pt line and key are different and in FIBA there can only be 5 players lined up for free throws (3 and 2)

9. Free throws, all violations are ignored if the FT is successful unless the FT shooter violated

10. Traveling, in FIBA it is not traveling when a player falls to the floor with the ball. The rest of the traveling is the same I believe.

11. FIBA, clocks stops after made baskets during the last 2 minutes of the game, substititions are allowed.

12. FIBA, legal to throw the ball over the backboard.

13. FIBA, no time outs from the floor, different # of TO as well.

There are lots of other differences, mostly technical, but when you are going back and forth with two sets of rules, it can be a challenge. A lot of times during a game, I will remind myself this is a FIBA game especially if there is a BC situation or possible basket interference.

[Edited by Jay R on Aug 1st, 2004 at 11:39 AM]

Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

I hope you're not saying it's ILLEGAL to throw the ball over the BASKET in NFHS, NCAA, or the NBA. ;)

Re: Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

Should have been over the BACKBOARD. Sorry

There's nothing wrong with Rasheed.

Yes. New FIBA rule effective October 1.

Time Outs: First half 2, Second half 3, Overtimes 1. Remember time-outs are granted only when the ball is dead or when the calling team has conceded a field goal. The procedure is similar to the NBA's mandatory time-outs which are granted during dead balls, except that a team MUST call the time-out to the scorer (not official). Once the time-out is called, once the team is scored against or the ball is dead, the period begins.

In some FIBA-sanctioned leagues, a media time out is permissable at the halfway mark of a period on the next dead ball.

Note that the Euroleague, televised in the US by NBA TV, does NOT play by NBA rules, but by ULEB (Union of European Basketball Leagues) rules, which are mostly FIBA but have a few NBA differences -- jump balls (no arrow, and players not jumping are allowed in motion during jump balls as to equalise a shorter player by having his team send two players in motion during the jump to "steal" the tap), procedure to start periods 2-4 and overtime (NBA procedure), block/charge arc in the trapezoid ("no charge zone"), time outs (FIBA with a difference -- one can also be called if the last or only free throw is successful), and in the final two minutes, a timeout granted once the ball is dead in the backcourt or called by a team after conceding a basket can result in the ball moved to the centerline, facing the scorer's table. The ball can be advanced to the front or back court in such a time out.

[Edited by Bobby on Aug 16th, 2004 at 10:56 PM]

Detroit's been good to him.... I mean, good for him!

Oh, now it makes sense!
 

I believe these rules are the same as those that appear in the NFHS Coaches' Manual and the High School Fan Handbook. ;)

Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

So if you put your foot in the front court and then bring it back you have violated, even thought your other foot and the ball are in the backcourt?

This doesn't seem fair. So at the end of the game someone puts up a shot to win it and the ball with shooters touch is bouncing around the rim and the ball (right above the cylinder) is about to go in the basket when a defensive player swats it away. If this is the case then why don't teams leave someone down there (7'5") for the sole purpose of swatting away potential goals once the ball hits the rim?

Re: Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

I was wondering about this too. Jay, explain how this DOES work, on a dribble.

I can see that with the Olympics being in FIBA rules, we're going to have a long season, explaining differences all over again. Sheez...

Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

So, Jay, let's take an example. A1 is dribbling the backcourt. He passes to A2. A2 is straddling the division line. If A2 now moves his frontcourt foot and places it in the backcourt, is it a backcourt violation? If A2 merely lifts his frontcourt foot, is it a backcourt violation (since he's now totally in the backcourt after being in the frontcourt)?

Just curious.

Guess I should've read to the end of the thread before posting my brilliant question :rolleyes:

Re: Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

The same benefit applies to the shooting time. Ball rolling around the rim. They can jump up there and slam it home.

Encourages better shooting...if it's nothing but net, there's nothing to knock away.

Re: Re: Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

I assume you meant shooting "team". Either way it doesn't seem like a very good rule. A Ben Wallace type could just linger around the basket and stuff anything that touches the rim. In this case Big Ben would probably average 50 points and 20 blocks. (Statistical Question - Does it count as a block shot or a rebound?)

By the way does the USA team know that they can do this? They didn't seem to know a couple of the rule differences, like calling a time out. (At the end of a quarter the US team had 3 or 4 players surrounding the ref asking for a timeout and he was just ignoring them.)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FIBA rules
 

You are correct, I meant "team".

As far as an advantage...I think a properly called 3 second rule would mitigate it. If an offensive player were lingering around, I'm sure there would be a defender frustrating his efforts. Defense couldn't park there either without leaving someone open for a shot.

I think that as long as either team can is permitted to do it, it's fair. It may be different...but it's even.

The USA team IS told this. The issue arose last Olyimpics as the other teams were swiping the ball off the rim (or jamming it in) while the USA players were waiting for it to drop off. After playing for 5-10 years of not being allowed to do so, it's hard to change those kind of reflexes/habits.

(NOTE: Post #1000!!!!)

There were different questions asked, I'll try to cover them. Most of you seem to answer your own questions though.

Regarding backcourt violations. Yes, if you put one foot in the FC and return to the backcourt it is a BC violation. Even if it is only the ball that touches the FC, you have FC status. Now in theory, every time a dribbler crosses the centre line, you could have a BC violation, but in practice as long as the dribbler does stop or retreat at the centre line, it's OK.

Chuck, both your examples are BC violations. Returning a foot to the BC or simply lifting the foot in the FC would constitute BC violations. To take that further, a player cannot stay there with one foot in each court because he has FC status, so he has to move into the FC or it's a violation.

Regarding basket interference or lack of it. You are correct that any player (offense or defense) can touch the ball when it has hit the rim and it is bouncing above the rim, so there is no imaginary cylinder. A player cannot however touch the basket if it is touching the rim. As far as 7 footers swatting the ball away, it happens but you don't see it very often. Probably because it is difficult to time.



[Edited by Jay R on Aug 6th, 2004 at 07:00 AM]

In FIBA rules
1)if the ball is sitting on the ring anybody: offense or defense cn touch the ball. It is not a violation as the ball has already touched the ring.
2)rule 41.2.3 Whilst the ball is in flight during a shot for a field goal and after an official blows his whistle or the game clock or the 24-second device signal sounds, all provisions for goal tending and interference with the ball will apply.

Thank you for the correction Nick. I had said that you cannot touch the ball when it is sitting on the rim, I meant to say that you cannot touch the basket when the ball is the rim.

With the basket interference - keep in mind that if the ball is above the level of the ring, and in downward flight, it can't be touched by the defense - it's goal-tending.

As far as the backcourt rules go - technically you could call a backcourt violation everytime a dribbler crosses half-way. But you wouldn't get far as a referee if you did!

With regards to the USA teams being told the differences between FIBA and NBA rules - it is their responsiblity to learn the correct rules, not the organisers/referees to educate them. Let's face it, when I arrive at LAX airport from Sydney, does anyone explain to me that Americans drive on the right, or that the legal drinking age is 21, that possession of marajuana is far more serious than in Australia, or any of the 100's of other legal differences? Of course not, it is my repsonsibility to be aware of the differences before I arrive - and the same should apply for the Olympics.

Phew.....that's the longest post of mine in ages!!!! :D

Alberta has been using CIS rules for about 4 or 5 seasons now, I believe, with about a half dozen modifications, including no handle in the backcourt.

FIBA will be in Canada for awhile, the CIS (university) Women have been quite adamant about not switching - although I hear if there was a "no handle in the backcourt" modification, they might be willing to do it.

Also players are allowed to be in motion during the jump ball. With regards to the Euroleague, which doesn't use the possession arrow, this rule is crucial because shorter players can neutralise the jump ball by sending two players to set a 'pick' around the taller player, allowing the taller player to have their tap intercepted. That's a quirky rule in Europe, but men are permitted in motion during a jump ball except for the jumpers.

There's nothing that I know of in NF or NCAA that says that players must be stationary. The only thing non-jumpers may not do is (a) move onto the circle or (b) change positions on the circle.

If you're not on the circle, you can move around anywhere on the court. Even if you're on the circle, you can move, as long as you're not changing spots with another player.

"Everybody hold your spots" is a common misconception.

True - but in FIBA you are not allowed to occupy a position directly behind another player, or in any other position that places a player at risk.