I worked a tournament this weekend, with the typical know nothing fans and parent coaches. I ended up dumping three coaches over the course of the weekend which is alot. I have a question about one situation that led to a coach going ballistic and getting ejected. First of all, there was some prior history as I had their team a couple of weeks ago and he got very irate and out of control and I dinged him then, so he was ready for any mistake I made, I believe and was going to try to embarrass me, since he convinced his crowd and players that we cost them the game the first time around.

Sitch: Team A makes a basket. Team B player takes the ball after it goes through the hoop sets it down on the baseline and bends over and proceeds to tie her shoe. I give it a few seconds and begin walking up the court (summer ball mechanic). I'm about even with the free-throw line extended when I start a five second count. He flips out, literally screaming that it is my job to stop the clock and let her tie her shoe. Even though I got all the way to 6 and didn't call the violation, he still went off enough to get a T. About 45 seconds later, he gets the second one after he follows me to halfcourt griping at me and I then tell him he needs to have a seat because he lost the box when he got the tech. Well, he blows up then. Screaming that I don't know what I'm doing, get the second one, and continues screaming says "I don't care how long you've been calling, you suck at officiating". Although, there is no excuse for his behavior, in the original situation would you stop the clock to let the player tie her shoe. What rule reference? Other comments?

First of all I would like to say WOW! You tossed 3 coaches over a weekend. Never heard of that before.



I personaly will not stop the game for someone to tie their shoes. If it is already a dead ball I will delay putting the ball in play until the player has finsihed tying it but not stop play.

I think I would have started the count as well. I might have told the player to inbound the ball before tying the shoe.

JUst my thoughts.

Not sure of the rule reference but depending on the game situation i would call time out and allow the player to tie thier shoe--safety precaution--if not the proper game situation to do this I would just give them time to tie shoe at next dead ball

Just let me add that I will always delay putting the ball in play for a player to tie their shoe, but I have never stopped play for it, not even a player who loses their shoe, unless I think it could be a safety issue.

Yes, it was wild. I'm working with two guys who are first year guys so that they can get some court time and learn and these people act like idiots. The other two were almost too easy. The first one was out about the free throw line during play in my partners face yelling and he had absolutely no gripe, call was good. Partner whacked him, and I got him again about two seconds later since he was not stopping or making an effort to get off the court. The other guy first took off his glasses and slid them about two feet out on the floor, then screamed at the top of his lungs "THAT IS TOTAL, COMPLETE BULL****! YOU'VE BEEN SCREWING US ALL WEEKEND". As I whacked him, he screams "I'M LEAVING". I was like, duh... To the credit of the other adults on the bench, every body was much more well behaved after his exit, the kids came back from 19 down to make it a two point game, go figure...

Square knots rule.
 

*Coaching 101 should include tying bows with square knots.

devdog69,
My inclination is to not stop the clock.
However, ...I may feel slightly obliged to stop it in your sitch with the ball outside the lines just as a courtesy to the player.
I have no reason to stop it other than gut feeling.
Do we use advantage/disadvantage here? :)
mick

What was the level of play? If it was extremely low (5th/6th grade), then I may stop play when the ball is dead. If I have to stop play more than once, I inform the coaches that shoelaces will be treated the same as uniform shirts. If they're not done up, I'll ask for a sub.

Jr High and above, no stoppage for shoelaces.

P.S. -- don't stop the clock to get the net down either! (stir, stir, stir. . . :D )

Good one
 

Good one, Chuck!
What do you do?
Teach me.
I don't thnk I have gotten a net down more than a coupla times.
mick

Re: Good one
 

Mick, tht's why Chuck has a partner. :D

Re: Re: Good one
 

That's funny, TravelinMan !
A coupla years ago I was workin' a game with a 6'3" strappin' college lad. We didn't need a ball. :)
mick

Re: Re: Re: Good one
 

Isn't it fun working with those young jumpin Jacks. And you can say "hey, get that for me will ya?" and "I'll get the next one". Right.

Summer league mechanics? What are those. Probably never a good idea for the trail to be ahead of the play. That aside, why not just blow your whistle and let the player tie their shoe? What harm would it cause?

Z

I agree, just as a courtesy, especially if the ball wasn't at the disposal of the player, blow the whistle and allow the player to tie his shoes, there's no real harm there and no advantage gained. Judging by your post, it doesn't seem like there was any pressure being applied by the defense, so his team would not be gaining any advantage by your allowing him to tie the shoes. I wasn't there but it doesn't look like the coach was trying to embarrass you, and if you've had trouble with that team before, here's a good time to give them the benefit of the doubt. If this same situation happens again though, don't be as lenient.

As far as the net goes, an official should never, ever jump up to get the net. There have been officials hurt (ACL) doing this and it doesn't have to happen. Just use the ball to do it, if you really want it down.

I don't personally have any problems with throwing a coach out. However, where were your partners during all of this? Can you go over the sequence of tossing 3 coaches? I'm just curious as to what your partners were doing as far as the two of them issuing Ts or if you had to be the bad guy all day. If the coaches did say what you said maybe they should have been gone with one T. If you counted to 6 and didn't call a violation I don't see anything wrong except your position on the floor. You also could have got the ball and just waited for the player to tie the shoe before you started the count. Either way, the player tied the shoe and you didn't have a violation. What was the exchange between you and the coach before the T(s)? Sounds kind of unreasonable to me given the fact that his team wasn't penalized at all.

The way I read it, the violation was called and that sparked the argument. I do think preventative officiating may have helped in this case given the prior game, but again, I wasn't there so I don't know the whole circumstances.

As for the net, I can easily grab it myself or, if necessary, use the ball, but I simply ask one of the players to take care of it for me on the remote chance that something embarrassing could happen (torn net, net won't come down, etc). We already have enough on our plates without dealing with the nets.

Chuck's point actually was "do you stop the game to get the net down, or do you wait until the next natural whistle?". It's a good point, and it always provokes some great arguments for and against.

JR got my point. I don't care how you get the net down, as long as you don't stop the clock to do it.

And, for the record, I agree with Chuck.

I did not call the violation. The level was high school girls. As far as the mechanics, this type of tournament requires about 18-20 games over the weekend so if I can begin walking up the court and save my legs I would often be ahead of the play as long as there wasn't pressure. So, you leave the net up if it gets caught??

TWEEEET

"Timeout B! Called by Coach B."

Now you've granted his request to stop the clock so his player can tie her shoe.

Disappointed.
 

Chuck,
Abiding for your guiding, I get a wish because of that swish.
mick

Re: Disappointed.
 

Judging from the "disappointed" subject heading, I'm not going to like it; but could I get an English translation of your last post? :confused:

Re: Re: Disappointed.
 

Chuck,
You said don't stop the clock, but get the net down.
I'm thinking, "Fine, Chuck knows."
I asked how.
You said you don't care how, "just do it".
....
....
.... Duh! I just figgered out what you meant, throw a Nike at it.

mick

Prior to the 1963-64 season, National Basketball Committee of the United States and Canada (NBCUSC) Rules (the predessor ot the NFHS and NCAA rules committees) allowed game officials to stop the game or to prevent a dead ball from becoming live so that a player could tie his/her shoe. Starting with the 1963-64 season this provision was intentionally deleted from Rule 2. The Rules Committee, in an editorial comment, stated that the provision was deleted because the Committee did not want officials to stop the game or delay a dead ball from becoming live so that a player could tie his/her shoe. The effect of this rule change is that officials by rule cannot stop the game or delay a dead from becoming live so that a player can tie his/her shoe.

If one goes to the current NFHS Basketball Handbook and go to the chapter on the history of the rules changes, one will see the change listed in 1964. This rules change is still valid for both NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's Rules.

MTD, Sr.

Re: Re: Re: Disappointed.
 

Not exactly. :) Just meant that I don't stop the clock to get it down. The net will stay hung up on the rim until a shot pushes it back down, or until the whistle sounds for some unrelated matter. At that point (whistle sounding), I may -- if it's convenient -- take the ball and knock the net down.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Disappointed.
 

Thanks, Chuck,
It seems to me that the view of the hoop changes with the net hung up causing a slight disadvantage to a team.
Perhaps the shooting team wrapped the net, or perhaps not they did not.
I am a little uncomfortable with leaving the net hung up. I'm glad the occurrence is infrequent. :)
mick

I never attempt to knock the net down either by jumping (I am 6'2" or by throwing the ball). If you miss either way you look like a fool and the crowd gets a good chuckle. If there is a dead ball, I'll look at the tallest kid and ask him to get the net down. I'll usually preface it by saying something like ( hey ref's can't jump that's why we referee) or ( how about you put on a show for the crowd and jump up and get that for me).

Never had a problem and never looked like a fool.

never?

Let me see... Referee, never looked like a fool...

hmmm...

"Any umpire who claims he has never missed a play is, well,
an umpire." .... Ron Luciano

Stick in referee and you get the idea...

And, for the record, I don't think that's true. I know I've missed some calls and I know I've looked like a fool.

I totally disagree with this logic, MTD. Just because they took out the allowance to stop the clock does not mean that you cannot stop the clock. The rule book contains things that are illegal and cannot be done under the rules. Therefore, if it is not specifically prohibited in the book or officials manual, it is up to the official, IMHO.

devdog69:

Re-read my post. Prior to 1963-64, the rules specifically allowed game officials to keep a dead ball from becoming live or to stop the game so that a player could tie his shoe laces. Starting with the 1963-64 season, that provision was deleted and the Rules Committee stated in an editorial comment that the provision was deleted because it (Rules Committee) wanted to prohibit game officials from keeping a dead ball from becoming live or to stop the game so taht a player could tie his shoe laces. Until the Rules Committee re-introduces the pre 1963-64 provisiion, its 1963-64 rule deletion and editorial comment governs the situation. As I also stated before you can read about the change in the NFHS's latest Basketball Handbook.

MTD, Sr.

I don't like this. How are we, 40 years later, supposed to know what they want if they aren't specific? If they really wanted to PROHIBIT it, why not write it into the book, and make it official? How are we supposed to be consistent and maintain a high standard of excellence when we are mostly guessing what the heck we're supposed to do?

Juulie:

You asked how we as officials are "supposed to be consistent and maintain a high standard of excellence?" Study the rules, study the casebook, study the auxilary books that are published by the NFHS and NCAA (Basketball Handbook, Officials Manuals, Illustrated Rules), attend rules seminars, ask questions of rules interpreters, contact the NFHS and NCAA rules editors, read Officiating.com and its Forums, read Referee Magazine, read the IAABO Sportorial, read the NCAA in-season bullitens, try to acquire old rules books and casebooks, and when all else fails listen to BALD, OLD GEEZERS, like me, who do not have anything better to do that peruse old rule books and casebooks and write letters to NFHS and NCAA rules editors for backround information concerning past interpretations.

MTD, Sr.