player passes ball in bounds. player on same team and player on opposing team attempt to catch it. they both collide without either catching the ball. a foul was called on opposing player. i have seen this happen before but wasn't sure of call.

I had this situation last week player A1 threw a long pass
A2 and B2 both running full speed hit each other head first
both went down one had a cut above the eye the other had
a busted lip blood every where. It took us about 10 min to clean every thing up. Since both were going for the ball
and and both were knocked out of the play and niether had actually gotten to the ball first I had a no call.

To make this call demands that the referee determine whether or not the contact was incidental. Within rule 4 there are some pertinent articles on incidental contact.

Rule 4 SECTION 27 INCIDENTAL CONTACT
Incidental contact is contact with an opponent which is permitted and which does not constitute a foul.

ART. 2 . . . Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or such contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

ART. 5 . . . If, however, a player approaches an opponent from behind or from a position from which he/she has no reasonable chance to play the ball without making contact with the opponent, the responsibility is on the player in the unfavorable position.

Sideline - this is often a call that will drive one coach ballistic and have the other coach saying "great call ref." I have seen some pretty good collisions with no-calls, which is clearly ok by the rules. In the case you cite, the ref had to determine that one player had a more favorable position. If that player is denied the chance to catch the ball because of the contact, the ref should call a foul. I do believe that refs tend to give the benefit of doubt to the offense and good defense is sometimes unfairly punished. But it is equally true that in many cases, since the pass is to an offensive player, the offense will be in a favorable position. But if the defender breaks to the ball first and has the favorable position, the foul call can and should go against the offense (if any call is made).

If either player had an advantage in getting to the ball, and the contact took away the advantage, then you have a foul. But if both players arrive at the same point at the same time, well, the coach said it. Incidental contact.

If they arrive at the same time and you feel the need to call a foul, you can always bust out a double.

I LOVE a double foul. Everyone gets real quiet,because they are so startled. You report to the table very crisply, announce alternating possession, grab the ball, in-bound and GO!. Both coaches are breathless, because the opponent got a foul, and yet... by the time they figure it out, they should be yelling at the girls again. No one ever complains!! I LOVE a double foul!

I think a better call would be either incidental contact or determine if one player was placed at more of a disadvantage than the other.

I agree with bskbal ref-Generally no call.

While the rules on double foul might support that call, it seems that the Article 2 under incidental contact strongly discourages it.

Contact which occurs unintentionally in an effort by an opponent to reach a loose ball, or such contact which may result when opponents are in equally favorable positions to perform normal defensive or offensive movements, should not be considered illegal, even though the contact may be severe.

To have a personal foul, you must impair the ability to perform normal offensive and defensive movements. The double personal foul is a simultaneous violation and affects both players' ability to perform normal offensive or defensive movements. The incidental contact provision strongly suggests that you do not have a foul when players have contact (even severe) from equally favorable positions. It seems to me that the double foul then applies to more intentional violations, like simultaneous pushes, a push and grab occurring simultaneously, etc.

Two players going strong for the ball and colliding with no advantage either way, no call in my book.

thanks for the responses
some of you have been very helpful,
while some have given responses to which i am accustom.
it appears these refs either dont know the
rules or dont want to try and make the correct call

again thanks

it appears these refs either dont know the
rules or dont want to try and make the correct call

I don't know what can lead you to draw this conclusion based on the flow of discussion on this board. Your referees have a different position and therefore a different view of the play than you do - either two or three different views. I should also add that their views are not biased. When in doubt, refs will favor the offense if it looks like the offense had any kind of advantage and the defense came into them. I can't say that the refs got this one wrong without having seen the play, and even if I saw it, I may not have seen what they saw.

While it is rare, I use the double more as a game management tool. I have had games where two kids go up, and suddenly my game looks like aussie rules football.

I would rather hit them both at the time, then have a brawl later. Testosterone does not know the meaning of incidental.

Point taken - if you know why and when you are using it, go for it. I think that many double foul situations are going to be no advantage either way, just need to get the players under control.

I hate 'em!!
 

I think I've called one double foul in 7 years. I don't like them at all. To me, it's kind of a "cop-out". In my own opinion, a referee calls a double foul under these circumstances:

1.) You've tried to talk two players out of a foul,
2.) you've been unsuccessful, and
3.) you realize that if you would have called a foul on either A1 or B1 to begin with (like you should have!) you wouldn't be in this mess!

I want to defend myself a little, here. I wouldn't call a double on the roiginal play as described in this thread. That would definitely be a no-call in my book.

But I find a double very useful in the low post when the swimming starts. Each is busy putting the other as a disadvantage rather than playing position or hold their spot. One pushes the other's arm and before you can even blow, the other is bumping the one and by the time the whistle goes, they've each committed about three fouls. Calling a foul on one of them and not the other just seems to exacerbate the problem the next time down the floor. I find that a double cleans up the whole problem very fast. In fact, most times the coach will put them to guard someone else and use a different defense tactic.

I know I don't have as mych experience as a lot of you others, and it may be that when I am getting more varsity level games, I won't be using this as much, but right now I find it very helpful. I don't use it every week -- maybe about once a month, but I am always glad I did.

I coach a couple of physicial teams that have had a lot of physical match-ups, middle school age, serious bball. Yet to see a double foul in any game I have coached, or any of the older age groups at the tournaments I have attended. We're talking over 100 games this year, lots of different refs with different philosophies and tendencies.

Watch a lot of HS ball, haven't seen it there either in the past few years. Not gonna say it can't happen, but once a month is probably more than is called for or I would be seeing them called. Granted, I say this without benefit of seeing your games, let alone having to manage them.

[Edited by Hawks Coach on Jan 16th, 2001 at 02:01 PM]

I don't think this is a "cop" out call, but I agree that they have to be used sparingly. I have called two this year (my first in probably two - three years), both were in the first week of games. Both were on very rough play underneath. Once I made the call, it was clean as a whistle the rest of the game. These are an example of where I used in as a game management technique, the trip prior both times I warned the players, and they gave me the deer-in-the-spotlight nod.

Hit them both and they know you're watching, hit only one, and the other feels shafted and is more determined to "get one" in. I almost rank this up there with preventative officiating.

my response was directed more towards mr watson and rainmaker and specifically mr watson
he stated that "you can always bust out a double" this was the type of answer i hoped i would not get
it was given without any basis at all

some of the later responses did try and explain when a double foul might be a good idea, however if all members of an officiating crew are making the calls instead of one ref picking up the slack the game would be a lot better controled and a double wouldn't be necessary to get game under control

also a foul is a foul and to say it would not give an advantage is wrong if enough fouls are called to get a game under control at some point it is going to give one team an advantage

it does appear there are some refs or at least some people who do know when to make the correct call which is why i posted here so i would at least have an idea why a call was made and if it was close to being correct

thanks for the replys
keep them coming

Juulie, understand that...
 

I'm NOT attacking you! I'm attacking the call.

Brian, when I see two guys STARTING to lean on each other, I let them know I'm watching and tell them to BOTH play straight-up. If they don't, I get the guy who starts it, and I firmly tell the guy who started to follow suit that I'm not putting up with that stuff and that they'll both get it the next time. Usually works pretty good.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 16th, 2001 at 02:27 PM]

my response was directed more towards mr watson and rainmaker and specifically mr watson
he stated that "you can always bust out a double" this was the type of answer i hoped i would not get
it was given without any basis at all

Sideline
My guess is that you're relatively new to this board, and it is always great to get fresh input. You have undoubtably noticed that some folks just rattle off the call rather than the reason on their initial response to a posting, which frequently leads to more discussion of the point, as occurred here. Having read brian and rainmaker's follow-ups, I hope you would agree that they do have a reason for their call and it is one way they deal with a game management issue. While you or I might not agree with their call if it happened in a game we are at, I think that they can justify the reason within the rules and within the concept of game management. Every ref has to set their own standards, especially in this gray area of incidental contact, advantage (O or D), or double foul.

And that final point was my initial point - we can't from the sidelines judge why a ref has made a specific call on these bang-bang plays. I believe that they are seeing much more than we tend to give them credit for.

Juulie - FYI - Howard hates double fouls.

HAWKS posts another winner...
 

..... And that final point was my initial point - we can't from the sidelines judge why a ref has made a specific call on these bang-bang plays. I believe that they are seeing much more than we tend to give them credit for.

I think he may be a referee reincarnate?????

MARK:.... And what would "Dave" say about this all...

Mark -- Thanks for the warning. I will definitely keep it in mind.

Others -- I will keep in mind the criticism and re-evaluate the next time I'm thinking about a double. I can see that it would be a real cop-out in some situations, but I have been complimented in some of the games where I called a double, so I don't think I'm using it that way.

I admit that I haven't always been good at keeping track of who "started it" in the low post. In a two-whistle crew, who watches the post when the ball is down near the three point line and the baseline? If I'm on lead on that side, I'm watching the ball, but the trail can't see the post, especially if the players are all on one side of the floor. This is when I see the most action in the post, because the ball is supposed to fall in toward the basket. But I can't keep track of it all, because I'm on-ball. I know this is a pre-game issue. How do I bring it up?

Real Partners
 

Jewel,
As your partners develop they will close down on the play from Trail, when all the players are on your Lead side, and they will be keyed on the post position.
If they are Lead, away from the ball, they will come over to make the ball side "a strongside" with two refs on one side of the lane.It'll come
mick

I think a lot of it has to do with the area you are in, and the comfort level ofthe call. I wouldn't say a double is pushed here, but the interpreters want fouls called on all parties when needed. Like the play in the paint, when it is just mutual banging, they feel we should call doubles, the thinking being both players are responsible. Now if one uses their rump to clear out, pull the old swim move, etc. then you get that person.

I try to "talk" them out of fouls, but I know this was even discouraged a little this year, because the feeling (by the higher ups) was it has not worked in the past. We were "told" to hit the fox right off the bat.

On the fip side, when I was in IN, I was told you should rarely, if ever, have a double and never ever have a multiple.

A wise man once said officials should do what they are told by their (fill one in state, assignor, league).

And Mark has helped make it clear to me what my commissioner thinks about doubles. And you others are helping me see how to handle the situation in other ways. Just one more way this board is fantastic. Thanks, boys and girls!!

A common technique to not call a double is to call the defender now and come right back out and watch them again and call the other player. Got em both. Message sent with out a "funny" call.