I've got this running debate with a few association members who insist that it's ok to make a little noise towards the officials, from the stands, at their daughter/sons games.
My argument about "being held to a higher standard", and "they should know better because they've been there", pretty much falls on deaf ears.
This is one of my major pet peeves.
Generally, in my area, everyone knows most of the officials. People know us, and we may not know them, but once we don the stripes (or other uniform), we must act accordingly at all times.
Any suggestions on how to get through to these fanboy/refs?
barb

Barb, at the start of each year, our association hands out a "code of ethics" to all of our officials. Prominently displayed on that code is the following point:
-<i>"Do NOT criticize your fellow officials with fans, coaches, players, other officials,etc. It is completely unprofessional. It is expected that every official will support and help their fellow officials at all time"</i>.

Now, you know and I know that that isn't gonna stop some officials from engaging in the back-stabbing and jealousy. You're always gonna have some of that, along with the local politics. I think that you can try to keep it to a minimum though, imo. Having a "code of ethics" does allow the executive to do something about the backstabbing if it is brought to their attention. Our members know that their executive doesn't like it because it makes all of us look bad, and that their executive won't put up with it. I think that it has to come from the top down in your association if it a problem and they are serious about minimizing that problem.

There's a difference between "teasing" a fellow ref from the stands and engaging in the kind of ridiculous ranting usually practiced by the great unwashed.

I don't mind the good-natured teasing - in fact, I enjoy it as long as it is clever and/or funny - but if another ref started to criticize me from the stands, he or she is toast.

We are working on a revised "code" right now, and the formation of a sub group to look into ethics violations of all types, within our assoc.
Your idea is a good one.
barb

We are working on a revised "code" right now, and the formation of a sub group to look into ethics violations of all types, within our assoc.
[/B][/QUOTE]One of the things that we did with the "code of ethics" that we issued was to also issue along with it the penalties that could be applied by the executive for violations of that code. Iow, we spelled out the fact the the executive had the right to fine, suspend or even get rid of an official for repeated or bad violations if we wanted to. That was at the suggestion of one of our members who was a lawyer. He said that we needed to spell everything out so that all our members knew where they stood and what penalties they could possibly face, just in case a disgruntled member who had been disciplined decided later that he wanted to try and get back at us by suing. It's called "CYA". :D

It is unacceptable to pulicly disagree with a fellow official. Anyone who does that is a total *******, I wouldn't even be afraid to address a situation at the next meeting. Secondly if it was allowed and I really wanted to stoop down to their level I'd get their schedule and go to all of their games. To me officials are suppose to stick together, there's only two/three out on the court at any given time, we don't need a fellow official ganging up on us with a bunch of ignorant fans. You either need to be an official or a fan, you can't be both. If you see a mistake, keep it to yourself and discuss it with them privately at another time. Also if fans know you're a ref and they ask you a question just tell them that the other official has a better view, no one can argue that.

Jeez, first TravelingMan and now Snake-eyes. Is today "National Over-reaction Day"? Come on, guys. You're an a-hole if you acknowledge that your brother official got a call wrong? Wow. I guess that's unforgiveable, too.

I'm not condoning ranting at or criticizing an official on the floor. But if you're in the front row and see the shooter's foot clearly behind the 3-point line, and the official is too lazy to get an angle and calls it a 2, are you going to lie to people who ask you and say that it was a 2? Come on. You say, "He got stuck with a bad angle, and couldn't see the line, so he didn't want to guess. But I agree with you, he was behind the line."

Again, disagreement can be done respectfully; but obviously, I would agree that it's totally wrong to rip an official with the fans.

Not exactly what I was referring to, I'm talking about yelling at the official, and starting the disagreement. And personally if someone asked me that question I would say "He's got the better angle" And I wasn't even talking about that, I work my *** out on the court, if I miss/botch a call(which does and will happen) I don't need some *** yelling at me.

Guys - read the original post. We're not talking about an official who is watching a game being asked a question in the stands by someone. We're talking about an official on the floor being yelled at by a fellow official from the stands during a game. Apples and oranges. In this case, the orange deserves peeling, grating and squeezing into pulp.

I understand what you were talking about, but what you said was that any official who disagrees with the official on the floor is an A-hole. And that's a major league over-reaction. I'm just trying to tone down the rhetoric a bit.

I understand that Mark. Just trying to tone things down a bit.

I think you took it out of context, either that or I just wasn't clear. I'm talking about referees who would yell out "bad call ref", I'm not referring to people asking questions. I'm talking about a ref who acts like a fan and sounds like a moron by yelling at us.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, Snake. I did not take your post out of context, nor were you at all unclear. You wrote


You didn't say it's unacceptable to publicly berate a fellow official. You didn't say it's unacceptable to denigrate a fellow official. You said it's unacceptable to disagree!!!! Disagreeing makes you an A-hole! Who knew?!?!

Again, I understand that's not the kind of disagreement you were talking about. But you made this over-reaching overstatement and I thought it was unnecessary. Like saying it's "unforgiveable" to make some coaching move.

And again, all I'm trying to do is to point out (and hopefully reduce) some of the knee-jerk hyberbole and over-reaction that has crept in since "ballpunk" dropped by.

If you think I'm being over-sensitive, so be it. I'll let it go now.

Good grief, guys. :(

What? I said I'd let it go. Don't be such an A-hole, Tony! :D

Yep, three DeNucci type posts. Yer lettin' go alright. :)

I think I'll "tone it up" a bit...



Why?

Why agree with a fanboy? What possible benefit is it to agree that your fellow official got it wrong?
Snake-eyes is right...we have all missed a call at one time or another. Would we have appreciated a fellow official agreeing with a fan that indeed we did blow it? I don't think so...Chuck, you are usually right on...IMO, you should re-think your fan fraternizing philosophy.

First of all my fraternization is usually with my wife and/or the parents of the kids in my wife's class (she teaches most of the kids on the school's 7th/8th grade team). So I'm not just there blabbing with Joe Schmoe, saying "Oh look at what he did wrong!"

Second, I don't discuss judgment, block/charge, whether a travel was "missed", etc. Usually when I go to those games, people ask me what the rule is on some play, and I tell them (and the official's are usually right!).

Third, in answering your question, I guess I would ask "Why not?" What harm does it do to admit that you saw the player's foot on the line, just like your fellow ticket-holders. You're not "selling out" the official, especially if you give a legitimate reason for why s/he might have missed it. I would simply rather be honest, and say, "yup, he missed the toe on the line" than lie and say "well, he had a better angle", when everybody knows he doesn't.

Just my opinion. And again, I am in no way endorsing or condoning yelling at an official from the stands. I'm strictly talking about conversation among friends here.

Well...since you asked...I will repeat what I asked.
What benefit is it to tell your "fellow ticket-holders" the official got it wrong? IMO, you don't need to...they already saw it, leave it be. Also, I didn't say you had to "lie" about not seeing it...there are other ways of getting your point across without telling a "lie". After awhile your "fellow ticket-holders" won't look to you when they think the officials missed a call, because they know you will not critique the officials of whom you are a part off.
Now, if you want to educate your friends with proper rules/mechanics/positioning/etc...great! It's just that "proving" that the officials got it wrong because you said so...IMO, dosen't show that you are backing up or supporting your fellow officials very much.
Maybe I can see why you want to show your friends when the officials at the 7th and 8th grade games got it wrong...because you might just as soon be disassociated with these guys. I know its tough to sit and watch a couple newbies do a game...especially with friends...but, we were all there once and I don't think it helps the new guys' confidence any seeing a top college or H.S. official in the stands verifying the fans opinions.
When I put that black and white shirt on more than 15 years ago...I joined a fraternity of referees. I can no longer be a "fellow ticket-holder", at least at middle school or H.S. games, I am a member of a select group...Officials!
Amen...Brother!

That's cool, Rook. I have no problem with your view. I just don't think it's as big a deal as some others seem to. I don't see the problem with saying that I saw the same thing as somebody else in the stands. As I said, it's just my opinion.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
[B]Coaching move???? You call that a coaching move? Well, you may be a good official, but as far as a coach.......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TravelinMan
[B]Now I'm confused, I don't even remember saying that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snake~eyes
[B]Snake-eyes, I am rolling on the floor laughing. It was Chuck that said that but I edited it incorrectly when I replied. I didn't mean you, I mean't you know who (Chuck).

I won't ever criticize a fellow official in front of fans simply because it makes that guy's job considerably harder and gives fans some ammunition. I know other officials though, who will make comments, and that annoys me. However, there is nothing that I hate seeing at a game more than an official who doesn't make an effort when calling a game. Judgement calls and positioning, those things I won't touch, but when I see a guy who's lazy out there and not giving the game his best effort it gets me really mad. By laziness I mean not knowing the basic rules of the game, the simplest mechanics and simply not making any effort to hustle. Officials like this make ALL of us look bad and hurt the general perception of officiating. I think if this is the case, it is the lone exception where we can criticize our fellow officials. By giving other officials our support, they agree by default to work their games to the best of their ability and to be competent at the most basic level.

Tony:

Listen to Chuck and relax. Kick back and have a Rolling Rock longneck.

MTD, Sr.

I don't know about you guys, but if I admitted a ref messed something up when I'm watching a game, the response would be something like "wow, ref, you suck, I've got a REAL ref right here who said you missed that, blah blah blah..." and that's not good for anybody. If you don't give the people around you anything the first couple times they ask, they'll stop asking.

Our association also has a code of ethics that basically says if refs are attending games they are not officiating, they still need to conduct themselves the same way they would if they were officiating. Basically, don't act like an ignorant fan.

Anyone that is an experienced official and acts like a fanboy when they are in the stands should be punished! I can see this kind of behavior coming from a novice official that has only done rec ball and thinks he/she knows everything. I've had one official (that does H.S. & some small college ball but does not know the rules very good) that when waiting for the next game mouth/signal a travel or foul to me after a play. After each game that he does this I go over and explain why I did not call it that way. He's not yelling like a fanboy but he is making gestures for everyone to see (sitting next to scorer). A couple of times the coach saw this and it did not help the situation.

I felt vindicated a couple of months when we were working an 18yr old AAU girls game together. There were a number of things that he did that were wrong. He called in my primary a couple of times when he didn't get to see the whole play. He called a travel that wasn't a travel. He called over and back when it shouldn't have been. There were some other things that I can't remember now. At half time a fan comes down and sits next to my partner and starts telling him all of these things that he did wrong. I was sitting there wondering why he's letting this guy talk to him like this (even though he's right). For a minute the fan turns and talks to someone and my partner tells me that this is one of the top officials in the state and that he was here to watch his daughter. When he turns his attention back to us he leans over and asks me who I was. He said that I was doing a hell of a job and that he didn't have anything that he could critique me on. As a young official I can tell you that it felt great to hear this from a well respected official. :)

This is exactly how you handle a situation when you are watching a game as a fan. You approach the officials with respect and discuss rules/mechanics/position with them away from the fans. You always give them the benefit of the doubt that they might have seen the play in a different way.

This also taught me that you never know who is watching you officiate!

Chuck

You are undermining the officials on the floor when you make comments about the officiating. It is even worse when you know the people in the community where the game is being played. THe people there know who you are and what your standing is, so they look to you validate what they think.

Any sort of reply, verbal or non-verbal, can be interpreted as disagreement with the call. If you do it in the stands, it is believable that you would do it on the floor.

As far as the original post, it is certainly inappropriate to attempt to disrupt what the officials on the floor are trying to do - give 100%.

My .02

Even if I comment about how great the officiating is? ;)

But the fact is that if everybody in the gym -- except the official on the floor -- sees the player step OOB, that the official is the one who has undermined him/herself. If I say to my wife or my buddy, or even a stranger, that the player did, in fact, step OOB, I don't see how that undermines the officials, or shows them disrespect. If I say that the player did not step OOB, or say that I really couldn't tell (the official must've had a better look), then I'm lying and I undermine myself.

I hope everybody understands (for the umpteenth time now) that I am not talking about yelling at the officials or disparaging them in the stands or discounting their judgment. I am simply talking about observing that the official missed something obvious that happened.

And if what they think is obviously correct, why shouldn't I validate it? It serves no purpose to pretend the officials are infallible. But. . . I agree that any view I express is given a great amount of weight by people that I already know.

I occasionally do disagree with my partner on the floor. And when that happens, I go to him/her and say "I saw something different". My partner then decides whether to alter the call based on my info -- or not. But I never do this when it's a matter of judgment. It's a line call, or when my partner calls a violation in front of me when there was no violation. Essentially, my policy on the court is the same as in the stands. If the blown call is something obvious that the official missed (except for issues of judgment on contact), then I feel justified if I mention it.

If you disagree, so be it.

On that, we agree. ;)

When I watch or attend games with my friends, I sometimes agree that an official missed a call. BUT, anyone I say that to has already heard the speal about how difficult officiating is and how every call doesn't have to be made and how I make mistakes all the time and how the official can easily be blocked out and how.....

This is what officiating has taught me:

I've officated, I've coached and I've been a fan. When I am coaching or cheering for my team as a fan, I completely ignore the officiating because it is beyond my control. I concentrate on how I can help my team vis-a-vis instructing and strategizing if I am coaching or applauding if I am a fan. And also just enjoying the game.