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-   -   The Big "X" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/14453-big-x.html)

dhodges007 Tue Jul 06, 2004 09:59am
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
At camp this weekend, another camper and I were working with one of the evaluators (3-person). I was lead, camper-partner (CP) was trail, eval (E) was at C. I notice a competetive match-up just moving into my primary at the top of the key with A2 getting into position to receive a pass, and B2 behind her, and beat to the play. B2 grabs A1's jersey with both hands. ...
Juulie,
When I got to here I thought intentional.
For me grabbing an opponent's jersey is always an intentional foul. Of course, this thinking probably comes from my soccer reffing experience, where it is a yellow card.
I agree with those that said it is not a basketball play. This is not just an ordinary foul during the course of the game, therefore, I believe that it needs to be penalized more harshly.

But what does any of this thread have to do with the X on the floor in front of the scorer? :D
Nothing at all. That's a small x.

I see the point about calling it intentional. I just was surprised, and it got me thinking.

One thing I'm having trouble getting the hang of is when to get tough and when to be flexible. At the moment of the call, I thought she was really overreacting, but her explanation makes sense, and now I see that most of you (with one exception worthy of consideration) agreed with it. I expect it's just a matter of logging some more floor time, but I wish I could come up with a more intellectual rationale for what needs stern response and what doesn't.
Stern responses would be non-basketball plays IMO. Grabbing the arm, shirt, leg, throwing elbows, baiting and taunting are all non bb plays and should be dealt with sternly. Set the guidelines in the beginning and you (hopefully) won't have to deal with that crap when you are in the last few mins.

rainmaker Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:25am
Quote:
Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
I will mention to a coach (if I get a chance) that he should maybe find another way of telling his kids to foul. A lot of coaches now use code words to let their ballplayers know when they want them to foul.
My (2-person) mechanics have become comfortable enough that I am able to pay more attention now to the game, and I've started noticing how coaches call these plays. I listen for the play calls throughout the game, so I can anticipate the play (never the call, tho!). One guy, who I heard reviewing the "strategic foul" in a last-minute-time-out, would say, "..wait...wait...wait...CODE RED!!! CODE RED!!!" It worked fine for helping the players know what to do. Too bad it let both teams know.

devdog69 Tue Jul 06, 2004 10:26am
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
At camp this weekend, another camper and I were working with one of the evaluators (3-person). I was lead, camper-partner (CP) was trail, eval (E) was at C. I notice a competetive match-up just moving into my primary at the top of the key with A2 getting into position to receive a pass, and B2 behind her, and beat to the play. B2 grabs A1's jersey with both hands. A2 wasn't hampered much, and I was going to give it a pass, when E (at C) cracks the whistle and comes up with The Big X -- yup, an intentional foul. Coach B and crowd go bananas, of course.

Later, when we talked about it, E sounded very reasonable and her thinking made sense, but I would never have even thought about it. CP and I just looked at her and listened with a sort of blank stare, and nodded. Her rationale was that this was "not a basketball play," and the book talks about taking away a clear advantage (the actually wording is, "to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position"), and not making a play on the ball. These reasons made sense to me, and besides she's a very experienced ref around here, who works as high as some of the minor D1 conferences.

I'd be interested in y'all's opinions on this call.
This is an easier call to make if you're an evaluator at a camp working with some campers. You are going to have the confidence to make this call if you want to. I doubt that she would have the onions to make this call in a D-I game where she is the one being evaluated. It's a different perspective.

zebraman Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:11am
[QUOTE]Originally posted by devdog69
Quote:
This is an easier call to make if you're an evaluator at a camp working with some campers. You are going to have the confidence to make this call if you want to. I doubt that she would have the onions to make this call in a D-I game where she is the one being evaluated. It's a different perspective.
Amen to that devdog!

Z

Mark Padgett Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:35am
Juulie - does this sound familiar?

"BANANAS, BANANAS, BANANAS" usually followed by TWEET and the dreaded X (depending on who's working the game).

rainmaker Tue Jul 06, 2004 11:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Padgett
Juulie - does this sound familiar?

"BANANAS, BANANAS, BANANAS" usually followed by TWEET and the dreaded X (depending on who's working the game).
Yea, but I never call it an X unless the foul itself warrants it. I know we're supposed to if there are verbal instructions to foul, but if the kid makes an honest attempt to go for the ball, or tries to set a screen, I'll call it just a foul.

The hardest ones are when the "strategic" foul isn't really hard enough to call, but you know that if you don't call it, the next one will be a tackle. That frustrates the heck out of me.

mick Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:22pm
Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
The hardest ones are when the "strategic" foul isn't really hard enough to call, but you know that if you don't call it, the next one will be a tackle. That frustrates the heck out of me.
This happened to me a coupla years ago:
<p><I>Anticipating the end-o'-game "strategic foul", I whistled one of those *tweener* fouls and got a major look of discontent from the defensive player.
The contact coulda been enough, ... or not.
Took the player outa the game, I think.</p></I>

I quit doin' it.
Now, for me it has to be a foul.

When I think about it, it occurred to me that by calling the type of contact that I called, I was in fact buying the defense a little more time (even if they wanted the foul).

No more. If it happens to escalate, I can cross my forearms.

mick

rainmaker Tue Jul 06, 2004 12:52pm
Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
When I think about it, it occurred to me that by calling the type of contact that I called, I was in fact buying the defense a little more time (even if they wanted the foul).
This seems to me like an important point. When they're just barely fouling, and not really getting the job done, and then the offensive coach starts screaming about not calling the fouls, I say, "Coach, do you want to stop the clock and give them the ball?" Then like you say, if they give the body-slam, it's capital X time.

Dan_ref Tue Jul 06, 2004 01:03pm
Re: Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
When I think about it, it occurred to me that by calling the type of contact that I called, I was in fact buying the defense a little more time (even if they wanted the foul).
This seems to me like an important point. When they're just barely fouling, and not really getting the job done, and then the offensive coach starts screaming about not calling the fouls, I say, "Coach, do you want to stop the clock and give them the ball?" Then like you say, if they give the body-slam, it's capital X time.
Most good coaches have no problem stopping the clock, that means they get to shoot FTs or will soon enough. As for letting the small "strategic" fouls go & waiting for the body slam, well, let's just say we disagree.

mick Tue Jul 06, 2004 01:44pm
Re: Re: Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
.... let's just say we disagree.
You can say it if you want.
I won't.
mick

Dan_ref Tue Jul 06, 2004 02:38pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
.... let's just say we disagree.
You can say it if you want.
I won't.
mick
You're not being very scrutable today, are you?

mick Tue Jul 06, 2004 02:48pm
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
.... let's just say we disagree.
You can say it if you want.
I won't.
mick
You're not being very scrutable today, are you?
Am too.
mick

blindzebra Tue Jul 06, 2004 03:07pm
Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
The hardest ones are when the "strategic" foul isn't really hard enough to call, but you know that if you don't call it, the next one will be a tackle. That frustrates the heck out of me.
This happened to me a coupla years ago:
<p><I>Anticipating the end-o'-game "strategic foul", I whistled one of those *tweener* fouls and got a major look of discontent from the defensive player.
The contact coulda been enough, ... or not.
Took the player outa the game, I think.</p></I>

I quit doin' it.
Now, for me it has to be a foul.

When I think about it, it occurred to me that by calling the type of contact that I called, I was in fact buying the defense a little more time (even if they wanted the foul).

No more. If it happens to escalate, I can cross my forearms.

mick
One of our primary concerns should be safety. By not calling that soft strategic foul you are encouraging the body slam or the big swinging hit. I'd rather be safe then have it escalate.

lrpalmer3 Tue Jul 06, 2004 03:10pm
Quote:
Originally posted by devdog69

This is an easier call to make if you're an evaluator at a camp working with some campers. You are going to have the confidence to make this call if you want to. I doubt that she would have the onions to make this call in a D-I game where she is the one being evaluated. It's a different perspective.
AND, a different coordinator of officials might hate that call. We all know that you can't please all the coaches all the time, but I've learned that you can't please all the refs all the time either.

mick Tue Jul 06, 2004 03:12pm
Re: Re: Uncomfortable memory
 
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra

One of our primary concerns should be safety. By not calling that soft strategic foul you are encouraging the body slam or the big swinging hit. I'd rather be safe then have it escalate.
You are not correct.
I do not encourage flagrant fouls in any of my sports.
I do not encourage any form of unsporting conduct in any of my sports.
I am resentful.
mick


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