hitting on arms during rebound

[Kelvin green]

Shoeball

My point exactly!

I dont disagree with anything JR stated. It has been calle that way for years. If a player is in anothers vertical space and not making contact, that player does not have the right to foul to get at ball. It has been that way for years!

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Disagree. It certainly does say that in the cites above. The defender can jump vertically and then legally occupy the space within his/her vertical plane. Not some of the space, Camron. All of the space. It also says the defender should NOT be penalized for having his/her hands within his/her vertical plane, but you're saying that maybe a defensive player can be penalized for knocking an opponent's arm(s) out of their vertical plane. That's a direct contravention of that cite. The offensive player is also the one causing contact in the defender's vertical plane by being where they aren't legally allowed to be. Pretty specific language, I think.

Still disagree. It says the defender can raise them above their head. It says the defender can have their hands above their head. It says they may occupy the space above them. It says they may jump. It says the opponent can't cause contact in that space. It doesn't say that they are permitted additional rights once they are there. It doesn't say that the player can cause contact outside of the act of jumping or raising the arms.

Just as the example posted above so clearly stated: if the opponent has caught the ball cleanly, the player (now defender) can NOT sweep the arms sideways, even within the vertical plane, to knock the opponents arms off the ball.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ShoeBall
So then Jurassic Ref, put in other words, are you saying that if an offensive rebounder jumps into the vertical cone of a denfensive rebounder to grab a rebound, then the defensive rebounder has THE RIGHT to use his hands in his vertical cone to hit the offensive rebounder's rebounding arm(s) in order and with the express intention to knock the ball loose out of his hands?

Yup, and I've quoted the rules citations that will back it up. Please go back and carefully read Rule 4-44-2,3,4 and 5 as written above. Do you have a rules citation - any rules citation- that will refute those citations?

To sum up- again:
- Article #2 says that the defensive rebounder may legally rise or jump vertically and occupy the space within his vertical plane.
- Article #3 says the hands and arms of the defensive rebounder may be legally raised within his vertical plane while on the floor or in the air.
- Article #4 says that you CAN'T penalize a defender for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS HANDS EXTENDED WITHIN HIS VERTICAL PLANE!!!! NOTE: "CAN'T PENALIZE"!
- Article #5 says that the offensive rebounder, whether on the floor OR AIRBORNE,MAY NOT ...CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL.

Seems pretty straightforward language to me. I'm open-minded though, if you can find anything anywhere in the rules that will refute these specific, written rules that I cited.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
[/B]

Disagree. It certainly does say that in the cites above. The defender can jump vertically and then legally occupy the space within his/her vertical plane. Not some of the space, Camron. All of the space. It also says the defender should NOT be penalized for having his/her hands within his/her vertical plane, but you're saying that maybe a defensive player can be penalized for knocking an opponent's arm(s) out of their vertical plane. That's a direct contravention of that cite. The offensive player is also the one causing contact in the defender's vertical plane by being where they aren't legally allowed to be. Pretty specific language, I think. [/B][/QUOTE]

Still disagree. It says the defender can raise them above their head. It says the defender can have their hands above their head. It says they may occupy the space above them. It says they may jump. It says the opponent can't cause contact in that space. It doesn't say that they are permitted additional rights once they are there. It doesn't say that the player can cause contact outside of the act of jumping or raising the arms.

Just as the example posted above so clearly stated: if the opponent has caught the ball cleanly, the player (now defender) can NOT sweep the arms sideways, even within the vertical plane, to knock the opponents arms off the ball.
[/B][/QUOTE]Camron, what rule says that the defensive rebounder can't legally move their arms within their vertical plane? There isn't one that I know of. On the contrary, the rules that I cited state the exact opposite. And where in the citations that I gave are there any restrictions as to WHEN the defensive rebounder can raise his arms either? Again, I don't know of any rule that lays out any restrictions regarding timing.

The example posted above may have been clearly stated. Unfortunately, the conclusion reached in that clearly stated example isn't backed by any rule that I've ever heard of.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 21st, 2004 at 07:24 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ysong
Thanks to Jurassic Referee for your convicing explanation.

would you please help me with one of my other recent posts too: "why post player backing-in toward basket is legal in NBA?"

I believe "backing-in" is illegal in NCAA or FIBA, is that right?

Thanks in advance.

The rulebook really doesn't address "backing in" as it isn't a rulebook term. It's a foul to illegally contact an opponent and displace him. But the thing you have to remember about the NBA is that most of these defenders are pushing just as hard as the offensive player is. If they'll establsih there position and hold their ground, they'll get the call. But if the attempt to jockey for position, they're not going to get the call.

You have to remember that the NBA is not the NFHS or the NCAA. The players are bigger, stronger, and quicker. You can't officiate a couple of 300 lb. seven footers like you do a couple of HS kids. It's a different game.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Camron, what rule says that the defensive rebounder can't legally move their arms within their vertical plane? There isn't one that I know of. On the contrary, the rules that I cited state the exact opposite. And where in the citations that I gave are there any restrictions as to WHEN the defensive rebounder can raise his arms either? Again, I don't know of any rule that lays out any restrictions regarding timing.

The example posted above may have been clearly stated. Unfortunately, the conclusion reached in that clearly stated example isn't backed by any rule that I've ever heard of.

Agreed.

[ShoeBall]

Thanks Jurassic Ref. You've pretty much convinced me.


There is however one small point that still bothers me:

Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."



The word "cause" is what bothers me. Is the offensive player's simply being in the opponents vertical plane enough to put the "cause" of ANY ensuing contact whatsoever within the vertical plane squarely on the offensive player?

Thanks,
Andrew


[Edited by ShoeBall on Jun 21st, 2004 at 10:14 PM]

[RookieDude]

[Quote]Rule 4-42-4- "The defender should NOT be penalized for leaving the floor vertically OR HAVING HIS/HER HANDS WITHIN HIS/HER VERTICAL PLANE".[Quote]

I agree with this statement...if the offensive player does not have the ball.
If the offensive player has the ball then all bets are off, IMO.
This isn't some sort of "foul free zone" is it?...and since the rule dosen't state one way or the other, we are stuck with that darned ol' common sense thing aren't we?

[SamIAm]

JR,
In your opinion, if the defender has a LGP with his hands at his side, and an offensive player is making a try that extends their arms over the defender, can the defender then raise his arms within his verticality to contact the offensive players arms? The timing is such that the defensive player raising their arms is subsequent to the offensive player's arm being within the defensive players verticality.

IMO - I have no foul if the defensive player's hands are vertical before the offensive player puts his hands or arms within the defensive player's vertical space, but am not sure in the scenario I just described.

[Kelvin green]

Im willing to bite and throw a monkey wrench in the works
(as if I have not stirred the pot already)

Take a look at Article 1. Verticality only has to do with legal guarding position.. and legal guarding position must be maintained.

In a rebound situation as first described. Who is guarding who? Did they establish and maintain LGP?

Rule 10 Section 6 Article 1 Extending the arms ... other than vertically so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with arms occurs is not legal... The positions are employed in rebounding, screening, and various aspects of postplay.

I might buy that if someone actually raised their arms straight up and hit the arm there may not be a foul. However if they do anything but raise their hands or arms vertically would still be a foul.

As said before just because a player is in their space it does not give the player free reign to foul to get ball.

[RookieDude]

Here's a scenario for those of you who don't think it is a foul to hit a player's arm who has the ball in "your" verticality.

A1, who is 7 foot, is holding the ball directly above B1's head, who is 5 foot.
By rule, can B1 now jump up and hit A1's arm to try and knock the ball loose? (Remember, A1 is in B1's verticality cone)

You can quote rules all day long...but, common sense tells me this is a foul.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green

Rule 10 Section 6 Article 1 Extending the arms ... other than vertically so that the freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with arms occurs is not legal... The positions are employed in rebounding, screening, and various aspects of postplay.

I might buy that if someone actually raised their arms straight up and hit the arm there may not be a foul. However if they do anything but raise their hands or arms vertically would still be a foul.

Well, that sure isn't a monkeywrench. All Rule 10-6-1 is doing is repeating the exact same concepts that are contained in Rule 4-44. It's legal to put your arms straight up (vertically) when rebounding. If they aren't straight up, of course there could be a foul called on that person.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by RookieDude


A1, who is 7 foot, is holding the ball directly above B1's head, who is 5 foot.
By rule, can B1 now jump up and hit A1's arm to try and knock the ball loose? (Remember, A1 is in B1's verticality cone)

By rule, B1 sureashell can. The exact rule is written above a coupla times, and I ain't writing it again. Can you cite me a rule that states that B1 CAN'T legally raise his arms vertically above his head in SOME instances? If A1 is shooting a jumper over B1, and his hands follow through into the space directly overhead of B1 in front of him, is it a foul on B1 if the shooter makes contact with B1's arms that are straight up over his head? If B1 is in the act of putting his arms STRAIGHT UP when the contact with the shooter's arms occur over top of the defender's head, is your common sense also telling you that this now becomes a foul on the defender? Same concept, Dude.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 04:34 AM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ShoeBall

There is however one small point that still bothers me:

Rule 4-42-5- "The offensive player WHETHER ON THE FLOOR OR AIRBORNE MAY NOT CLEAR OUT OR CAUSE CONTACT WITHIN THE DEFENDER'S VERTICAL PLANE WHICH IS A FOUL."



The word "cause" is what bothers me. Is the offensive player's simply being in the opponents vertical plane enough to put the "cause" of ANY ensuing contact whatsoever within the vertical plane squarely on the offensive player?

Andrew, transfer the same rules concepts of "verticality" to a defender/rebounder putting his arm out horizontally to the side, instead of vertically directly over his head. If an opponent runs into that arm, the foul(if you call a foul) is gonna be on the defender/rebounder now, isn't it? And it doesn't matter whether the defender/rebounder's arm is motionless(already there) or in the act of going out to the side when the contact occurs, does it? Even though the defender/rebounder's arm might be motionless horizontally when the contact occurs, that defender/rebounder has still caused the illegal contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SamIAm
JR,
In your opinion, if the defender has a LGP with his hands at his side, and an offensive player is making a try that extends their arms over the defender, can the defender then raise his arms within his verticality to contact the offensive players arms? The timing is such that the defensive player raising their arms is subsequent to the offensive player's arm being within the defensive players verticality.

IMO - I have no foul if the defensive player's hands are vertical before the offensive player puts his hands or arms within the defensive player's vertical space, but am not sure in the scenario I just described.

Sam, read the replies that I gave to the Dude and Andrew, and tell me what you think. Same concept is used throughout.