Officiating a JV boys summer league earlier this evening: Great game, with 3 seconds left in the first overtime and coming out of a time-out after Team A had scored to tie it up. Team B has a "run the endline" throw-in and has to go the length of the floor. I remind the scorekeeper to not start the clock until he sees me chop time. I hand the ball to B1 for the throw-in because A1 is pressuring. B1 passed the ball to B2 so I chop time. Then I realize that B2 is out of bounds along the endline and I should <b> not </b> have chopped time. What a rookie mistake! B2 throws to B3 who takes a couple dribbles and the horn goes off before he can launch a long 3-pointer. Everyone stops.

I negotiate a "do-over" and had no problem selling it to both coaches but of course Team B's "surprise play" is now shot to heck and they don't get a shot off on the "do-over." What a bonehead play! Everyone was fine afterwards because it had been a well-played game and great sportsmanship, but I sure beat myself up on the way home. Yeah, Team A won in the second (sudden death) overtime.

A humbled Z

Don't beat yourself up to bad z. The fact that you talked with the Coaches and explained your mistake shows that you have good game management skills.
Besides, what are the odds that the kid would have made the long 3-pointer with 3 seconds left?
(Kobe Bryant excluded) :)

We all make mistakes. It will not be the first time and it sure as heck will not be the last.

I have been there for sure. ;)

Peace

This play caused about a 12 page thread in the past.

Some said do over citing 2-3.

Some said adjusting time to where the ball was at the horn.

Some felt that since this was an official's error it cannot be corrected citing casebook plays for 5-10.

It got pretty nasty.

I am curious, why did you have a "do over?" It appears that the Timer started correctly because B3 was able to take a couple of dribbles before horn sounded.

The fact is that no matter whether the Timer started the clock when the Trail official chopped time in, or whether the Timer started the clock when B3 touched B2's pass, this is not a "do over."

If the game officials have definite knowledge that B3 dribbled the ball for three or more seconds before the horn sounded, the game is over.

If the game officials have definite knowledge that B3 dribbled the ball less than three seconds when the horn sounded then Team B gets the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot on the court where B3 was dribbling the ball when the horn sounded. The key in this situation is to determine how much time should be put on the clock for the Team B's throw-in.

As far as incorrectly chopping time in, do not be too hard on yourself. That is why officials officiate summer league basketball: it is paid practice. It allows officials to try new things and to be paid to practice.

1) The fact is.....

2) If the game officials have definite knowledge that B3 dribbled the ball less than three seconds when the horn sounded then Team B gets the ball for a throw-in nearest the spot on the court where B3 was dribbling the ball when the horn sounded.

[/B][/QUOTE]1) Please replace "fact" with "my own personal theory". It most definitely is NOT a "fact" just because you happen to think something may be right! The only "fact" available on this one is that the rule book can be interpreted in different ways.

2) Ain't gonna get into this again except to say that I think you're consistent anyway. Wrong, but consistent.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 10:16 AM]

Well, being that it is a summer league I would assume that the purpose of the league is for training. This goes not only for the players but the officials as well. Use it as a learning tool.

After searching for a long time (without a search function, I might add :mad: ), I discovered that the thread where this was discussed at length was deleted.

My opinion is that you blow the play dead as soon as it is caught inbounds, remove 0.3 seconds from the time that remained at the beginning of the play, and put the ball back in play at the spot closest to where it was when you blew the whistle.

I could easily be persuaded to take a full second off the game clock (accounting for lag time). I think the "do-over" approach is incorrect for a sanctioned HS or NCAA game. Although, as somebody else pointed out, this was summer league, so it doesn't matter too much, as long as everybody can live with it. As always, just my opinion.

Read the original posting folks. The trail official made an error in timing by chopping the clock while the ball was still out of bounds. Definite knowledge would be that 3 seconds will be on the clock when the restart occurs. Taking off any time would be another error compounding the original error.

A couple of dribbles is not generally 3 seconds in any game I have seen. MTD is right about definite knowledge, and you can fight all day about whether you restart with 1.5 seconds (or whatever it would be) from around half court (my preference in this situation) or whether you have a do-over (questionable by rule and probably more of a penalty at this point to team with ball since they showed their last minute, length of court play already).

Definite knowledge means you know that 3 seconds did not legally pass before the horn went off. You need that to do anything in this situation. As for the do-over, you have no rule support for it, so some would argue that you are compounding the origianl error by deviating from the rules. Unfortunately, there is no great way to fix this. These are the kind of mistakes you hope to avoid, but don't kill yourself if they happen, because they will sometime.

Remove three-tenths of a second? :confused: Why?

You had to start all over again, didn't you? %$#@%^$#^!

Folks, please note that you can argue this one until the BoSox blow another year. Won't matter. There is NO definitive answer in the rule book for this type of play. It can be argued several ways, but not decisively.

As for the do-over, you have no rule support for it, so some would argue that you are compounding the origianl error by deviating from the rules.
[/B][/QUOTE]As there is also no rules support to allow for a throw-in and time adjustment up court.

Ad infitum. Ad nauseum. :D

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 11:19 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Quote:

Folks, please note that you can argue this one until the BoSox blow another year.

At least this way we know the discussion won't last much past September :)

Could save a lot of server space.

1. It's good to hear that other refs are out there making bonehead mistakes. Sometimes I feel like the only one who does it.

2. The first couple responses showed a lot of support, which was also good to see. I love you guys/gals. Sniffle sniffle.

Mistakes made involving the clock in the last couple seconds are my WORST nightmare. Whether I make the mistake or the timer, I dread the day a game is directly decided by that mistake.

When less then 10 seconds are left, I try to visibly count just in case. Anybody else have any suggestions? Maybe the count shouldn't be visible?

I need a really good picture of a horse race here::

Aaannnnddd..... they're off!! (sounds of William Tell in the background)

It's Cabbage by a head..

Sniffles is leading by a nose..

It's down to the wire, there's a cloud of dust at the finish line, but it looks like... it could be ...

....it's BEETLEBOMB!!! (ta-da-ta-da-ta-da-TAAA-DDAAA!!!!)

I need a really good picture of a horse race here::

Aaannnnddd..... they're off!! (sounds of William Tell in the background)

It's Cabbage by a head..

Sniffles is leading by a nose..

[/B][/QUOTE]It's Circumcision by a ......

Doesn't rule 5-10 allow the referee to correct a timer's mistake? In this case the timer started the clock while the ball was not yet inbounds. Just because the referee caused him to make this mistake shouldn't prevent the referee from correcting the time.

The bigger issue is that the "surprise" play was blown by the ref's error. Re-starting the inbounds play doesn't restore the element of surprise. I can understand why zebraman is upset with himself, but under the circumstances I think his solution was the best anyone has a right to expect.

It's Circumcision by a ...... [/B][/QUOTE]

watch it kid, your post is gonna get snipped

First of all, I didn't start it all over again. :D

Second of all, I would take 0.3 seconds off the clock (from the time that was showing at the beginning of the play) b/c 0.3 is the least amount of time that come off the clock when it is controlled. (That's why you can't control the ball and shoot with only 0.3 on the clock.)

Since it would unfairly penalize the offensive team to make them try their surprise play again -- when it already worked, with the exception of my error -- I would rule that the inbound pass was completed and controlled and then immediately blown dead. So obviously, you take the least amount of time off the clock allowed by rule and give the ball back to the offensive team at the spot nearest to where it was blown dead.

I honestly don't see why anybody has a problem with this interpretation.

And I honestly don't see why anyone would vote for....

The timer did not make a mistake, there is no rule support to correct the time, adjust the time, or do the play over.

Either you envoke 2-3, The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules, or the game is over, ala CB 5.10.1 Situation C.

Are you serious?

Let's recap:

A1 has the ball OOB, he legally passes the ball to A2 also OOB but you chop in time by mistake. Clock starts.

Now you're going to wait for A2 to inbound the ball, blow the whistle and TAKE OFF .3 seconds?

I dunno...but as they say before you leave that floor take a good look around, 'cause you aint ever gonna see THAT gym again.

Why not either blow it dead as soon as you see the clock start before the throw-in or leave it alone & hope for the best?

Absolutely. If you see the clock start first, you stop the whole thing. Sorry. My assumption was that the play was completed before the error was noticed (which is what happened in the other thread).

But I agree that if you see the clock running before the inbound pass, you should stop it right there.

1) Please replace "fact" with "my own personal theory". It most definitely is NOT a "fact" just because you happen to think something may be right! The only "fact" available on this one is that the rule book can be interpreted in different ways.

2) Ain't gonna get into this again except to say that I think you're consistent anyway. Wrong, but consistent.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 10:16 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]



Juassic Referee:

It is not "my own personal theory" because it is NOT a "do over." Except for subsitute free throws and one situation in the NCAA Women's Rules (which I cannot think of at the moment and I have too many other things going at the moment to look it up), there are no "do overs" in NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA (not counting the 1972 Olympics Gold Medal Game farce). So give it a rest. You cannot have a "do over."

MTD, Sr.

If the play has been completed then why just take off .3 seconds?

In effect you are putting ON whatever time came off erroneously minus .3 seconds.

Seems simpler to just reset everything & do it over than to explain why you're putting everything minus .3 seconds back on.

What am I missing?

Because the play was completed as soon the ball was caught and controlled inbounds.


That's exactly correct, b/c that's what I have definite knowledge of.

Sure does. Unfortunately, there's no rule basis whatsoever for a do-over if the ball has already been inbounded. Once the ball is inbounded and controlled, then when you blow it dead, by rule, you have to resume play from the spot closest to where the ball was. So how can you possibly go back to the end line?

Juassic Referee:

It is not "my own personal theory" because it is NOT a "do over." Except for subsitute free throws and one situation in the NCAA Women's Rules (which I cannot think of at the moment and I have too many other things going at the moment to look it up), there are no "do overs" in NFHS, NCAA Men's/Women's, and FIBA (not counting the 1972 Olympics Gold Medal Game farce). So give it a rest. You cannot have a "do over."

[/B][/QUOTE]Are you kidding? No "do overs"? A1 has the ball OOB for a throw-in with 2 seconds left in the game, and throws a long pass in bounds to A2. While the ball is in the air, the horn goes off. Game over, right Mark, because there isn't any "do overs"? Oh, my!

OK, let's recap once more:

A1 takes ball out, passes to A2 OOB, clock improperly starts. A2 passes in to A3 (clock should have properly started now), dribble dribble shot...

...and you have definite knowledge of only .3 seconds?

Then how do you have definite knowledge that the clock started early?

Like I said...take a good look before you leave...


I'm not arguing where you put the ball.

I'm arguing how you handle the clock.

Where do you get that interpretation? There is absolutely nothing that specifies the amount of time that must come off the clock when someone cotrols the ball. It only specifies how much time there must be to both control AND shoot. I assert that the shooting motion takes more than 0% of that time and probably the majority of the time.

I'm making no claim about what you should do in the actual situation at hand but am only commenting on the assertion that 0.3 must come off the clock.

Are you kidding? No "do overs"? A1 has the ball OOB for a throw-in with 2 seconds left in the game, and throws a long pass in bounds to A2. While the ball is in the air, the horn goes off. Game over, right Mark, because there isn't any "do overs"? Oh, my! [/B][/QUOTE]


Thats not a "do over." Team A gets the ball nearest the spot where the ball was when the horn sounded with two seconds on the clock.

You cannot have a "do over."

[/B][/QUOTE]Are you kidding? No "do overs"? A1 has the ball OOB for a throw-in with 2 seconds left in the game, and throws a long pass in bounds to A2. While the ball is in the air, the horn goes off. Game over, right Mark, because there isn't any "do overs"? Oh, my! [/B][/QUOTE]


Thats not a "do over." Team A gets the ball nearest the spot where the ball was when the horn sounded with two seconds on the clock.
[/B][/QUOTE]Uh, no Mark. The ball's in the air on a throw-in with 2 seconds left in a period. The timer starts the clock early before the ball is touched in bounds. The horn goes off with the ball still in the air and NO time on the clock. Happens all the time. Now please tell me again that "you cannot have a do over" as you stated above.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 10:29 PM]

Ok, I now see where our difficulty is. Apparently, for some strange reason, you actually read the original post! See, if you just go by what you remember from last year's deleted post, then you'll see that my interpretation is exactly correct.

Now, being prompted by your recap, and having read the original post, I can see why you don't like my solution. In the old thread, the horn sounded as the inbounds player caught the ball. But that didn't happen here.

The original poster seems to have realized his incorrect chop. So I would hope, if it had been me in the situation, that I would've looked to see if the clock had started or not, as you suggested earlier.

If I didn't check the clock, then I guess the question is, how did he know that it started improperly? Never mind.

Ok, horn goes off and I'm then told that the clock started incorrectly. What to do?

Ball out of bounds wherever it was when the horn sounded with one second on the clock. B/c, as I will tell the coaches, my count was at 2 when the horn went off. Was it really at two? Did I really have a count?

In the immortal words of Fletch, "As far as you know".

So you're saying that you could control the ball in 0.2 seconds, but it would take another 0.2 seconds to let go of it again?

I guess I'm figuring that if the minimum time required to control and shoot is 0.4 seconds, then it takes 0.3 to simply catch it. That would make the release of the ball 25% of the total time, not 0%.

Honestly, I'm following the NBA's logic on this b/c they allow a catch-and-shoot with 0.3 seconds showing. And they also mandate that any time the ball is caught inbounds, no less than 0.2 can come off the clock.

There's the problem, Chuck. You're guessing. You don't know for sure whether it's 0.2, 0.3, 0.4....seconds to catch and control. The rules won't allow you to guess though. The only way that you can correct by rule is to have definite information. You don't have definite information.