I knew that subject line would get your attention.

Where are all the interesting cases and challenging rule interpretations? I'm tired of talking about NBA refs and socks. Let's learn folks.

[Edited by lrpalmer3 on Jun 7th, 2004 at 02:21 PM]

They're about a month away. Let people get to some camps. Then they'll have all sorts of things to talk about. Then it's another dry spell until the HS season starts up.

For 90% of us it is the off season, meaning mostly, other sports (for me football). I am busy studying those rule books. But hear is one...

After a long battle on the court, both coaches have been surprisingly good. Coach A is bent over on the sidelines waiting for a last second shot by the other team to go ahead by 1 or 2(w/ a 3). With 2 seconds left B23 shots a 12 foot jumper, and misses, but through the crowd coach A missed the whistle of a forearm tap foul with 1.6 seconds left, putting B23 (%50 FT) on the line for a chance to tie or win. Coach A falls over in frustration/elation/overwhelminghood/exahustion (you pick the emotion) and is sprawled out on the floor for a good 10 seconds, the other coach takes offense and asks you what you are going to do about it. What Do You DO?

calmly ask Coach A if he needs medical attention or if he is capable of getting his a$$ back in his seat by himself...then get the free throws shot and see what happens...

If i feel that his collapse was a negative reaction to my call then WHACK!!!. There is no reason a coach should be on the floor.

Sometimes I wonder if you are the offspring of Joe Crawford and Steve Javie. :D

http://www.eastbay.com/catalog/produ...16141&SID=8715

He should be floating above it?!?

I once had a somewhat funny (perhaps sad) reaction from a coach.

I don't remember the level (either JV or V) or whether it was boys or girls.

Near the end of a close game. I don't remember the exact situation except for that I called a foul. I announced my foul at the spot as always. On the way to the report, I noticed that coach A was going crazy...almost enough to get a T. I could not figure out what his tirade was about. I told him to hang on a second while I reported and I'd be back to hear him out. I reported the foul that i had called on B. I then turned to the coach who said: "sorry, I thought you called a foul on us."


Another similar one that many of you have probably had: OOB call. I yell "Blue" and point the correct direction. Player in Blue then comes up to me arguing the call (saying the other team touched it) only to then look down and realize he's wearing blue!!! Priceless.

How about six feet under it?

The only reason i would t him is because of a past experience.

It was at my first camp, and I was still a fairly new naieve official ;).

I was working a game, and there was an obvious charge deep in my partner's area, the only reason i saw it, was because all the players were grouped down there, and I was watching in the key for some rough off ball contact.

My partner didn't call anything, and the coach of the defensive team as the play is moving to the other end of the court purposely falls to imitate what his player did when he was charged. Neither my partner nor I made a call.
After the game, we got a good explanation of when to draw the line. And never again have a let a coach get anywhere close to that level.

I this is probably why I have such a low tolerance for coaches.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]I have those socks, they are Super!! :D

The natural order of things.
 

This board and others go thru cycles.

When the season ends, we go strong for about a month or so.

When the playoffs are over, many concentrate on other sports, like I do with baseball.

When the spring sports are over, then for many the basketball picks up with summer camps and leagues.

This place will slow to a nearly a halt when the fall sports like Football and Soccer.

Of course there will be those philosophy discussions and procedural discussions that make this place interesting. But that is not going to involve many serious discussions until maybe around October, when it seems most of the country begins to have their Official's Association meetings.

Then when the season starts and ends, we go thru that all over again.

This is just the natural order of things around here and with the other sports. The serious discussions do not really happen in the off season.

So until then we will talk about socks, shoes and camps until our fingers bleed. Plays and situations are generally more common in season or right before the season.

Peace

I just think it is funny because every time we get a coach situation, you seem to say," Whack, I'll T them!"

I'm just as likely in your game situation to say, "Coach, you flopped better than your kid did." That way you get to make a funny and you will still get to WHACK him when he comes unglued over your little joke. ;)

ref18
What I find amazing is that one situation is described, you apply it to a totally different situation in your mind, and justify a T. then you are surprised when people react like BZ. The situation outlined was one where two teams are near the point of exhaustion, two coaches are emotionally drained. One coach is on his kees and collapses when a foul is called down the stretch.

Did it happen because he opposed the call? Did it happen because his best player has fouled out? Did it happen because his team just made a mistake that will cost them the biggest game of their season? Is he mad because his team has done this in three previous close games this season and lost all as a result? Is it just overall frustration, but maybe at his team not with you?

To you, it doesn't matter because a coach once flopped in response to a non-call with the point of demonstrating how his player was knocked to the floor. When you didn't T him, you heard about it. That results in the mental rule of auto T if any coach hits the floor at any time in one of your games if you feel he was objecting to your call. My question is, who cares what you think or feel? This is a close game, and your calls at this point really matter. You had better be sure, or you better not T.

So your answer sounds rather extreme to most of us I think. The point of this whole situation is that you don't know why he did it. And you won't know, not without something else occurring. So your response to potentially WHACK him can only be based on your mental interpretation of what he did. If you have to interpret, you don't want to T, especially in a game like this. Best to hold it til he does something to really earn it.

I had a coach fall to the floor, similiar to the this, a couple of seasons ago.

Yes, he got a T.

A hunnert years ago, when I was on the court, our coach jumped to the floor and hit it and basically went nuts cuz we didn't get our last shot off in a one point game.

He found out shortly there after, that <U>we</U> were up by one. :rolleyes:
mick

Game over; no "T"

What was T for? Do you have a rule to back this call?

He surely does, Coach. Rule 10-4-1--"Bench personnel shall not commit an unsporting foul. This includes, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO.....". Iow, it's strictly up to the judgement of each official as to whether you committed an unsporting act, or not. You takes your chances....... :D

If I yell "That's terrible, what are you thinking" at one of my players, is that unsportsmanlike? (I don't do this, but lots of coahces do and it isn't ever a T) If I yell it at you, does it change your opinion?

Same with anything else on the bench. I am not saying a coach needs to collapse (or that I have done or will do so), but it seems a leap to me to have an unsporting T unless something else occurs that renders this a comentary on your officiating rather than frustration with the team's play. The mere act of collapsing to the floor does not a T make in my book.

Hawks Coach -- I don't disagree with you very often, but here, I do. I think the only thing the ref CAN do is interpret. It's'a little risky, because as you say, the emotions are running a little high. But I think the ref should be allowed to judge what the coach's intent is. If it were me, I might be tempted to stop the game, and call an ambulance, just for effect. Tempted, I said. He'd get the medical attention he needed, or he'd never pull the stunt again. But if it is just an attention-getting over-dramatization, it's definitely a T.

5000
 

Do not know how to do the big numbers thang that you do.

But damn Mick, <b>5000!!!!</b>

That is a lot of posts. :D

Peace

He didn't merely fall to the floor. If he had, I would probably have just called the paramedics.

People don't fall to the floor for no reason. He either tripped, was ill, or was reacting to either his team's play or the call. I can assure you that he was reacting to the call. He did not like the call, reacted to it and then fell to the floor. It was an obvious attempt to display his displeasure and to show up my partner. Tweet.

But while we're discuissing ESP, how about when a kid slams the ball to the floor or pounds his fist on the floor after a call? Am I suppose to be a mindreader? Am I supposed to try to figure out if he's upset with the call or upset with himself?

I don't think so.

Thanks for the rule reference, JR.

I frequently see players mad at themselves or the situation slam a ball or pound a fist, never see Ts for this. so I fail to see the automatic, got to know why it happened. I am a believer that you don't look for somehting that isn't there. You may say somehting the first time it happens, like "If you slam the ball like that, I may think you're objecting my call, which would mean I have to give you a T. I don't think you really want that." Got a lot of emotions on the court. Call what you need to - the quick T where you choose to interpret what is going on without warning, doesn't seem to meet that criteria.

As for your sitch on the coach on the floor, it sounds like you knew what it was. Not sure how, but I wasnt there. If it was clear, give the T - no prob. But this sitch given by Bigref doesn't sound like you have knowledge - no knowledge, close game, time almost gone, should be wan first then T. Obviously many disagree. Oh well.

I might agree with you if the ball is slammed down hard and then caught as it comes back up. If the ball goes above the players head (rough rule of thumb here) then we really have no choice, do we? Yeah, a warning might be nice...but some things are *assumed* to be pre-warned.

Like slamming or throwing the ball after a call.

And yeah, I'm gonna ignore a player who just bends down & smacks the floor 90% of the time, then warn him. Unless he's been a pain in the butt, then he's gonna get one.

Unfortunately, Coach, your book don't count. If you wanna collapse on the floor, you had better know who you are collapsing in front of. Let me suggest that you don't ever try collapsing in front of Ref18. And if you even think of saying "damn" when you hit the floor, you had better hope that MTD Sr. isn't Ref18's partner either. Iow, the actual reason that you collapsed on the floor doesn't really matter; what the official THINKS is the actual reason that you collapsed on the floor IS what really matters. As I said "ya pays your money and ya takes your chances".

Somehow, I think that you knew all this anyway. Most good coaches will learn the tendencies of officials if they get them a few times, and they will then use those tendencies to their advantage if they can. That's just smart coaching.

If the coach is laying on the floor, I would WHACK him too, but on the HEAD to see if he's alive! Then if he/she doesnt move I'll say DAMN and my partner can whack me with a T for potty mouth. (can they do that?)

Ts and Personals Too
 

Don't know if you can give your partner a T, but when the ref ran into my ball handler this weekend, I told his partner he had to call it. It clearly wasn't incidental contact. Four more and he's gone (in my book :) ).

Excellent Post JR
 

I think that you know that I know all that. :) Great points though. Everybody has their individual tolerance level, we see that all the way to the NBA.

Easiest way to avoid trouble is to avoid trouble. If you want to go flirting, then you can only avoid trouble if you know your flirting with the right person. Wrong place wrong person wrong time will get you every time. Pretty much works that way in life, too.

I'm one of many. I guess in this situation the coach just helped you avoid overtime and get home to watch the news. Sometimes the best way to avoid trouble on the court is to nip it in the bud.

Sorry all of the threads are not to your personal liking Ira, not every topic can be a case study. Pray tell, what type of socks do you wear?

I have another topic that doesn't "teach." How many guys think athletes from pro to middle school don't compete and show up like they used to?
Today's athletes are the most talented/gifted physically ever without question. What irritates me is there is always an excuse for a lack of performance. It is either the ref's fault, the coach's fault or something else. I personally don't think there are many athletes that are winners anymore. Not as many anyway. You know Jordan, Majic, Bird, Russell, Montana, Ali, Gretsky, even Mary Lou. Kobe is starting to put together a resume like this but his team has to win. The Lakers have problems and they are being exposed.
A few years ago in Vegas there was this kid named Smokey that was about 5'6". I loved to watch him play because he got the job done. He didn't even shoot jumpers all that well. He would draw fouls, drive to the lane or dish. His team was terrible but they beat one of the best teams in the city. Smokey had 20 points in the quarter and 13 of those were from the line. I wasn't there but I wasn't surprised.
Have we increased in talent but lost the "IT" a winner has? It's like we have momentary stars. Roder can't pitch forever (maybe), Venus and Serena lose in the same round, Tiger hasn't won a big tourney in a while and Roy Jones got knocked out in the second round! What is the world coming to?

1) Too much play - I think it gets to be too routine. When you play 80 games a year as a kid, do you really have the mental energy to care about all of them? If not, you start building bad mental habits at a young age.

2) Injuries have affected Tiger and the Williams sisters. You can say it's just an excuse, but the level of play is so high now compared to several years ago that you can't compete unless you are in top condition. and the injuries are coming at an earlier age because of . . . too much play at young ages, and a serious level of physcial effort that is required.

3) Today's athletes are more able to do things, but maybe that higher level of performance is harder to sustain than the lower levels we saw before. When the peak is twice what it used to be, it may just be too much to expect that you can stay there. Again, this can be taken as an excuse, but we really are in uncharted territory athletically speaking. If the valleys of performance are higher than the previous peaks were, are the athletes really doing that badly?

4) Better competition. there are more athletes that can knock you off the perch now. so we may not have noticed a drop off before, because the best on their worst day were still better than the wannabes. Maybe it's simply tha the wannabes have caught up. Just look at the number of competitive schools in the NCAA now as compared with 30 years ago. Night and day different, because there are more high level athletes out there now.

It's a little bit of a nostalgic view of the past...when I was a kid....

There are still players that are winners. They're just not the ones we grew up on and view as "The winners". There have always been loafers and coasters. There always will be. There are some kids that give it there all every night out. As was just said above this post, they're not always the superstar but are the role players.

Hawks coach/Camron, both good posts and I do not say that to have what I see all the time on this board ("you are the greatest", "I know you are a good official..." yada, yada, yada). Gives me some things to think about in regards to my feelings about current competition/athletes. However, since I grew up watching the guys I watched, I will take Magic, Kareem, Orel, Barry, Montana, Rice, Dickerson, Barkley, Gretsky and Isaiah against the world.

Tom -- Quote me ONE of these in the last two weeks.

Maybe someone can enlighten me as to what this is all about, because it's confusing. Tom, are you saying that it's bad or wrong for any poster on this board to say that, in their own personal opinion, they think that someone is a GOOD official?

When I used to be a parent, and one of my babies said something of that nature, I would say, "Aw..., no one will play with you? Do you need a hug?" :rolleyes:
mick

Rainmaker, I will find one for you if you didn't delete them all :D

Jurassic, there is nothing wrong with saying someone is a good person or good official if you know that about them personally. Otherwise I just think you can say they are a good typist :)

Mick, there are many things I could say similar to what you said but it would just turn into something nasty. For what? If someone can deny this "Internet Love", and the vast majority of posters do not do it, then I will say I was wrong. That will not happen unless someone deletes a lot of posts. See, I have asked a member of the forum if they knew someone they constantly gave kudos to and the answer was no. How can you tell if someone is a good official by what they type on this board? A lot of people know a lot of "rulebook" officials and this forum is a place some of them could hang out at. For me, many people on this board have sparked an interest in me to want to work with them or see them work. Some of this is for good reasons and some of this is for not so good reasons. However, I can not determine if someone is a good poster if they have 10,000 posts and stay involved in every thread. This gives very little, if any, indication of a person's ability to carry out what they talk about. I'm not saying this happens all the time and everyone does it, I just see it from time to time and I don't get it.

[Edited by tomegun on Jun 12th, 2004 at 11:47 PM]

tomegun,
It doesn't matter.
mick

We're waiting.

You know what? I just read what's above twice, and I still don't know if I'm sure exactly of what you're talking about or where you're coming from. Internet love? And you're saying that some of us here post TOO much? And we talk NICELY TOO MUCH about other officials? WOW! Again, do you know what, Tom? If that's what's bothering you, then I think that you should mind your own damn business when it comes to other posters here talking to or about anybody or posting anything that has got absolutely nothing to do with you personally in any way, shape or form. If posters here talk to or about other posters other than you, or they like to have a little fun sometimes without flaming anybody, then that is of no concern to anybody here except maybe a moderator. And you aren't a moderator. I'll be damned if I'm gonna change the way I post because Tomegun might personally not happen to like it.

If you wanna personally decide that someone is a good poster or that you'd like to work with them, then by all means feel free to do so. That's your right- the same as it's the right of anybody that comes to this forum. Other than that, what you are doing is just petty and vindicative imo - and pointless to boot.

If I've misconstrued what your point above was, then I'll apologize. But if all you're doing is crapping on some of your fellow officials here by getting involved in something that was always basically harmless or meaningless in the first place- and wasn't related to you or had anything to do with you in any way shape or form anyway- and ALSO never involved anybody flaming you or any other official on this forum- then I really think that you should re-think where you're coming from.

"And you have every right to post that topic. And NOBODY should be telling you that you SHOULD'NT have posted it, or that you and others SHOULD'NT be discussing it!"- Jurassic Voltaire.

You have misconstrued what I posted and meant. I'm sorry for that.

What did you mean then? I've gone back and read it again, and it still reads like a personal attack for absolutely no reason at all that I can see.