Last year I coached a middle school girls basketball team. Considering what I had to work with, we did well and won more than we lost.

End of the season comes and we go to play in a local tournament. We are playing against one of the teams that eventually made the finals and I could tell from warm ups that we were going to be lucky to keep this one close.

Game starts, first possesion for the other team and my best and tallest player picks up a questionable foul, one of those that could be called but one I have seen let go many times.

Second free throw of the shooting foul is missed, players going for the rebound and my best player gets called for a cheap contact foul on the rebound. I was just as surprised as she was that a foul was called.

As the game progresses, I can sense that we are just not getting any calls. My kids are getting knocked around and get nothing. A little contact the other way and they get a whistle. The parents are getting frustrated because of it.

Now, one of my kids spots up for jump shot, defender goes right at her and "blocks" the shot. I put blocks in quotes because it happened at the other end of the floor and I could clearly hear the slap of flesh sound and see that she was fouled. No call!

Immediately I'm now really aggravated and I yell at the ref, "Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"

So what does he do, he T's me up!

For that?!?!

Does that sound like something that warrants a technical?

I was working the refs a little before hand, but nothing excessive and nothing worse than an "Aw, come on!" or a "Looked like some contact to me?!?"

First of all, you're opinion of you not 'getting any calls' was most likely completely wrong since you and your parents are looking at the game from a biased standpoint. The call may have been missed, I'm not disputing that. If you had been whining to me about calls throughout and said something like that, it would have warranted a technical, especially in summer ball. Now, the best way to have handled the situation would probably have been to say something like "Coach, we're working hard for you and these kids out here and I need you to stick to coaching for me, please". Something to that effect would have given you a warning per se that we had heard enough of the 'aw, come on' whines.

For hollaring this across the floor you betcha'.

Doing this you are delibrately questioning the calls of the official(s) in front of the whole gym. That is not something that should be let go.

You would think though, in a tournament game that the school payed money to get in, that you would atleast warn a coach first before you "T" them up, if it was an accumulation effect that was bordering on a T.

"Call 'em both ways" isn't exactly making it personal either. If I said "You suck, call 'em both ways" I would have been disappointed if I didn't get a T!

I managed to work the refs all year and not get a T, which considering my personality, is some what impressive. I think perhaps I hit a thin skinned ref.

Perhaps.

Or perhaps you hit a ref who didn't think he was ready to take crap from a middle school girl's coach.

The comment you made is either accusing the officials of cheating or asking them to cheat.

If that had been your only comment, perhaps it wouldn't have earned a T. But, in concert with the others that you seem to have made, and given the fact that it was yelled, it deserves a T. There's no requirement for a warning.

As a middle school coach myself, I would say that I like what the official did. "Working the refs" is completely inappropriate at this level. It sets a VERY BAD EXAMPLE for the kids, and it reflects what I see as a misplaced set of values. The game is there for the kids. You want them to win, but you also want them to learn a whole lot of life lessons about teamwork and dedication within a set of rules - lessons that ultimately don't have much to do with basketball. Trying to influence the outcome by maniplating the only impartial people there is not the lesson I want to teach, and it is not the lesson that I like to see others teach either. Sure, coaches are often emotional people, and we can get very frustrated when things are not going our way, and sure, sometimes our emotions lead us to things that might cross the line to deserve a technical, but that line will move closer the more we complain. If you had not been on the officials all game, your complaint might have just resulted in a warning, but you brought it on yourself.

Aside from my feelings about the lesson "working the refs" gives, I think it is really self-defeating. Why would anybody think they would gain by getting an official p*ssed at them?

Well Bob, if saying calling 'em both ways is accusing them of cheating, then I guess I should get a T. I guess it's all in how you take it. It could very easily be construed as, you perhaps are not being consistent on both ends of the floor and calling contact on one team a foul and perhaps not on the other.

Considering the play that it happened on was a CLEAR FOUL, I guess I thought a warning would be in order. I heard the slap, the bench heard the slap, the fans heard the slap and nary a whistle was heard.

I guess I did deserve the T then, because at thought point I did think the other team had the refs in their pocket. I know enough to know which fouls have some judgement to them and which are no brainers.

I start to wonder when my best player is on the bench 30 seconds into the half on one borderline and one ticky tack foul. If that's the way your gonna call them, fine, call 'em that way on everyone and I won't complain. But to see the contact they let go after that, including a clear obvious foul, I don't think call 'em both ways was out of line. I've had refs give me "the look" after one protestation to many and have had them say quietly that "That one was close, but I'm trying hard, give me a break huh!" or something similar. And each time I backed off.

I guess I expected more out of tournament ref's.

Here's a blank piece of paper, go ahead and list them.

As a middle school coach myself, I would say that I like what the official did. "Working the refs" is completely inappropriate at this level. It sets a VERY BAD EXAMPLE for the kids, and it reflects what I see as a misplaced set of values. The game is there for the kids. You want them to win, but you also want them to learn a whole lot of life lessons about teamwork and dedication within a set of rules - lessons that ultimately don't have much to do with basketball. Trying to influence the outcome by maniplating the only impartial people there is not the lesson I want to teach, and it is not the lesson that I like to see others teach either. [/B][/QUOTE]

Bravo! Now, here's someone that understands what we're all out there for.

As an official, I always find it funny when people think that the refs are in the pocket of one of the teams. Most often, especially in tournament type games, we've never met or even heard of the participants in the game. Cheating on behalf of one team undermines why all of us have become officials in the first place. Name one person who became an official solely to help out a MS girls team win a tourney game. If that wasn't the goal of becoming an official, then why would anyone compromise everything they believe in to help win one game?

I play semi-pro baseball and we had a similar situation to the one you're describing in terms of the perception. We were on the road, and were on the short end of several close calls by the same umpire. Naturally, the guys started complaining, calling the guy a homer, even though in my opinion the guy got all the calls right. To his credit he continued to call 'em as he saw 'em and wasn't impacted by "working the ump." However, when our coach tried to question a call, he was greeted with a stop sign from across the field. This gesture was standoffish, and it fueled my team's suspicion that this ump was biased. Eventually, some bench players were ejected, but I think that it could have been avoided if the umpire simply allowed the coach to make a reasonable argument and in that way, acknowledged us in some way.

As this relates to the basketball situation, perhaps the technical could have been avoided through better communication, or at least it wouldn't have been a shock if you were acknowledged, but it seems to me that the fact that the officials tried to ignore you fueled your anger even more until it got past the breaking point. By the way you described the scenario, you probably should have received a technical for your actions earlier, but it could have possibly been avoided with better communication.

Regarding the slap that you said was clearly a foul. You said it was on the opposite end of the court. Could it have been the sound of the ball being slapped? Even if it was a clear slap, was it directly on the hand with the ball in it?
The rule book says that non-intentional contact on the hand that is holding the ball is not a foul. (paraphrased) Maybe they blocked the ball, and then hit the shooters hand? Just guessing, or maybe the guy completely kicked the call as you say.

I don't see how you see this as non accusing - You are telling them that they are not being consistent - and thus are cheating.

Sometimes I guess I expect more out of coaches...

A slapping noise is not necessarily a foul call (some of the time granted it is). If the hand is on the ball and is slapped it is not a foul (if they get the arm then it is).

Perhaps next time instead of questioning the officials ability/decision by yelling across the floor you may think - maybe he had a better angle. Better yet when you have a chance ask him politely about what he/she saw on that play.

Really - If you are polite about it (and haven't been working the refs with every call) you will most likely get a polite response back. Work with us and we'll work with you.

Dan,
If I have to list them for you, you shouldn't even be in this conversation...

I thought so.

Dime a dozen my friend, dime a dozen.

I sometimes wonder about you guys. If a coach says, "You just made that same call on the other end" or "That was a foul the last time" that doesn't mean he is accusing anyone of cheating or of intentionally being biased. It just means that he thought that you were not consistent in your judgement of what was a foul.

Basketball is probably the hardest sport to officiate. Some calls are obvious but alot of them are judgement. How tight or lose are you calling the game. Look at the college semi-final between Duke and UConn. It was one of the most horribly officiated games in recent memory because the refs were calling everything, then nothing and the sheer volume of calls made the game practically unwatchable.

I had games where I would applaud the ref and tell some parents to quiet down on a call on my kids.

I also had games where the ref called next to nothing and the game got out of hand.

Maybe I deserved the T. But the refs did a poor job of communicating to me, sent my best player to the bench on two questionable calls and then refused to call the game tight both ways.

The slap was on the arm, by the way, not the ball and not the hand on the ball. I actually had the best angle on the call from where I was.

And this year they should keep you away from any middle school girls basketball team until you learn a little bit about sportsmanship. Working the refs in middle school? Lah me, you've been watching a little too much NBA, Bozo. It's freaking MIDDLE SCHOOL GIRLS that you're coaching. Young kids! Think about it!

Constantly whining about calls to officials that are probably just starting out in the game- just like you- shows what a class act you are also.

unbelievable!

Ah c'mon JR, back off. The guy's obviously a big time MS girls coach and knows his stuff. I'm certain he's not nearly as big a jerk as he's making himself out to be.

Couldn't possibly be.

Okay smart alleck, you want a partial list, fine...

A player makes even slight contact anywhere near the shooters elbow. An old playground trick that should draw a foul everytime. Note Caron Butlers last second shot and foul call three years back against NC State.

Offensive player lowers the shoulder and tries to drive through the defender. (Unless your Shaq ;-)

A rebounder climbs up the back of a player who is rebounding the ball.

A defender slaps at the ball and the sound of flesh on flesh is heard

A defender puts his hand in the offensive players back and clearly impedes his progress.

Even easier ones.

The player dribbles a ball with both hands.

A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer.

A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball.

Again, this is only a partial list... :-)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CYO Butch

Quote:

As a middle school coach myself, I would say that I like what the official did. "Working the refs" is completely inappropriate at this level. It sets a VERY BAD EXAMPLE for the kids, and it reflects what I see as a misplaced set of values. The game is there for the kids. You want them to win, but you also want them to learn a whole lot of life lessons about teamwork and dedication within a set of rules - lessons that ultimately don't have much to do with basketball. Trying to influence the outcome by maniplating the only impartial people there is not the lesson I want to teach, and it is not the lesson that I like to see others teach either. Sure, coaches are often emotional people, and we can get very frustrated when things are not going our way, and sure, sometimes our emotions lead us to things that might cross the line to deserve a technical, but that line will move closer the more we complain. If you had not been on the officials all game, your complaint might have just resulted in a warning, but you brought it on yourself. Aside from my feelings about the lesson "working the refs" gives, I think it is really self-defeating. Why would anybody think they would gain by getting an official p*ssed at them?

I like this response the best. I hope Kaliix can learn from it as well as other coaches.

Now, I may catch some heat here. It's easy for us to dismiss what you’re saying as biased. However, it is not my goal to be contrary to a coach so I'll give you my honest response.

You were biased and did not see the game objectively. I'm sure you admit that. However, if the game was called tight at one end and your girls were abused at the other end then that is bad officiating. Since none of us were there and we only have your side, it's easy to dismiss you. However, anyone on this board that observes other, younger officials will tell them to be consistent with the calls.

We don't know what imbalance there may have been. But you may be right. I have seen bad officiating, bad coaching and bad playing. Wearing stripes does not make them right, but they are the rule enforcers for your game. If you were chipping at me during the game and I never had a chance to straighten you out, then you yell at me from across the court, “Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"… I’d likely T you up too. I can’t let you think that it is ok to show me up in a gym full of people. It’s inappropriate.

But you may have been right about the calls, I’ve seen it. If you want to work the refs you are teaching something to your players. Unfortunately, it’s nothing I would want my kids learning.

Good luck Coach.

By no-brainer do you mean everyone in the gym and even the concession stand in the hallway agrees on a call? If that is what you mean then there very rarely are no-brainer calls.

I've had a player control foul where the defender established defensive position, backed up, stopped, and took the charge. The coach didn't agree with me on that no-brainer.

Or perhaps you mean the slamming the ball in frustration Technical foul - That usually almost everyone agrees with.

Have you tried reffing yourself? Have you written the test? Have you always been in the perfect position on every play?

Maybe give reffing a little shot. See what it is like. See what it takes... perhaps that will give you a different perspective on coaching.

Oh my. My first impression of you was absolutely correct. Another know-nothing, wannabe middle school coach who doesn't know dick all about the rules or the game, could care less about teaching sportsmanship, and on top of that thinks that he's coaching NCAA or NBA games. Yup, lets work those officials.

They shouldn't let you anywhere near young athletes.

Hmmm... I guess since you called me a Bozo I get one...

I guess the phrase "working the ref" has a serious negative connotation to you guys. Let's try some else.

How about keeping the refs honest, sticking up for your players or something similar to that.

I never said I was obnoxious about, you all assumed that. There are certainly coaches who don't say word one to the refs and that's fine.

There are also those who can talk to the refs all game (not constantly mind you, they pick there spots) and never piss anyone off and maybe end up getting a call or two. It's all in how you do it.

I believe in getting every legal advantage I can. Keeping in the refs ear in a nice way can get you calls. You guys are human and it does work. One doesn't have to be a jerk about it.

It's got nothing to do with fair play or sportsmanship if done correctly. And when your kids are getting the short end of the whistle, they want their coach to try and stand up for them in every legal way possible. They respect that.

Did I get a bit PO'ed that one game. You bet. I was getting inconsistent calls, and they ref's were missing obvious one's which they shouldn't have, especially considering how they called the game early.

But hey, I coach with intensity, enthusiasm and passion, just like how I expect my players to play. You don't have to be great, but you have to play hard.

Butch, that's the difference between actually being a "coach" and being whatever Kaliix is. Maybe he'll read your post and give it some thought. I don't hold out much hope of that, though, after reading some of his other responses.

You have mentioned situations and examples of NCAA and NBA plays. You also brought up violations that I probably didn't see because I was trying to communicate with the coach.

Anybody that talks about rules, Shaq and middle school girls in the same sentence is not thinking clearly. Sorry coach, this game's for the girls.

I agree with footlocker, doing anything other than issuing the T in that situation could have really led to a situation where the game could have gotten out of control. At some point the officials have to assert themselves and draw a line which cannot be crossed to maintain the integrity of the game. What causes the officials to reach that line is based on their judgement, but they were doing what they had to do to control the game.

As for the list of fouls called, it's clear, kalix, that you have not officiated and have a fan's understanding of how to call a game. For instance, hearing "flesh on flesh" contact on a shot alone should not constitute a foul call. I had a play in my first year, a JV game in which I called a foul on a 3 pointer with 5 seconds left OT in a 3 point game because I heard the sound of flesh on flesh. I was somewhat straightlined and I didn't see contact. Turns out that a player clapped right at the time the defender swung at and attempted to block the shot. Fortunately, the player didn't make all of his free throws and my missed call didn't affect the outcome of the game, but it made me sick and since then I will make sure I see it before I call it.

Finally, I don't necessarily like the way we're dealing with coaches in this forum. This coach came in with a legitimate question and has debated it, and we've come back with personal comments and judgements. We as officials are not superior to coaches and perhaps this coach had a good argument. It's certainly sparked a decent conversation. Even though the coach originally came in here looking for sympathy or agreement, the coach is entitled to respect here and honest answers, not some snide remarks. Having coaches with different opinions, in my opinion, can enhance the forum so long as they are not openly disrespectful to officials. Seems like anyone who IDs themselves as a coach here has a big bullseye on their chest.

Nope, you don't get it. And you obviously never will get it either, Bozo. I just can't bring myself to call you "coach". I have too much respect for the real coaches that are out there.

Go back to keeping the referees honest,working for your legal advantage and staying in the ref's ears. Get those calls. That's really the most important part of coaching middle school girls basketball teams, isn't it?

Nice post footlocker, I agree. Unfortunately, I am really embarrassed so see a veteran member of this board feel the need to resort to name calling, ie. Bozo. Sure, this guy is venting, and maybe rightly so, who knows. Like I've never NEVER seen any venting about coaches on this board.

'Working the refs' at this level is definitely inappropriate. Likewise, as officials, even at this level of game we should do our best to treat the players, coaches, etc. with the same amount of respect as we do at the varsity level. These kids and coaches put in time, money, and effort too and don't deserve to have officials with flippant attitudes because it is a middle school game. We are the decision-makers on the court, but we too should be held accountable.

With that said, I think that the 'working the refs' comment this guy made, is being blown way out of proportion. When I read that a coach, at times, applauds referees for a good game, or tries to keep parents under control are qualities of a coach that are not always present in the coaches we see. I think this coach wants the best for his players and wants games called fairly. Gee, how unreasonable. In addition though, it does seem possible that this coach might not handle tough situations always in the correct manner and probably needs to work on that aspect of his coaching. I, for one, am not going to condemn him for this potential 'weak area' in his coaching. Nobody's perfect.

As a parent, I don't want my child's coach yelling and complaining about every call. But I definitely would want the coach to 'take care of' his players if the game looked one-sided.

There are some great officials out there, and then there are some officials out there that can't even handle a middle school game, but THINK they are ready to do college. More people on here need to keep that bit of reality in mind.

We all understand what working the refs is - we don't think it is appropriate. If there is a pattern of something I don't like, such as a player who is pushing off regularly to get open or throwing football blacks on screens, I will say something. If you are saying a lot about a lot of no-calls or calls you don't like, you aren't coaching. Period.

When I listen to the parents behind me at games, I realize that most people don't know how a game should be called. Not all contact is a foul, not even all illegal contact merits calling a foul. There is a lot of illegal contact that goes un-called every game. That which favors our team, we ignore - its part of the game. That which faovrs the other team, that's something the refs missed, and we're getting hosed. Happens all the time.

I have been accused of getting all the calls because I am the home team, and I have had parents come up to me after the same game and say that the refs sucked. Hmmm. Bias on both sides seems to be the only explanation for how two teams could get jobbed by the refs in the same game.

And I read your list of obvious fouls, and that tells me you have a working knowledge but not a rulebook or referee's knowledge of how a game should be called. Most of your obvious calls aren't even listed as such in the rule or case book.

Flesh on flesh, not always a foul - did you know that?

Over the back, not a foul listed anywhere in the rules.

Lowering the shoulder, realy depends - it's a nice rule of thumb, but you have to see who did what where before making that call. Of course that's not what the announcers will say.

Hand on the back and impeding progress, that is technically a foul, but a lot of contact in the post goes un-called. You could have a whistle every possession if you wanted a strict rules interpretation call. Hand on the back impeding progress is clearly a very judgmental call - and you don't want a lot of pre-shot contact called in the post. You usually want to get the offensive scoring opportunity.

So if this is your list of obvious fouls, you have missed the boat on all of them, either partially or totally.

So Mr/Mrs/Ms Kaliix, you seem to have answered your own questions right here...you got pissed off and yelled across the court at the official. And now wonder why you got T'd up...you got T'd up BECAUSE you got pissed off and yelled across the court at the official. Like you said - it's all in how you do it, and you don't have to be a jerk about it...a simple comment to the official - "Hey, it sure seems like my player got slapped down there. What did you see" would have worked a whole lot better...and I would say that if you are worried about "keeping refs honest" then it has a whole LOT to do with sportsmanship (or maybe lack of it)...look at it this way - your team comes down the floor on D and you tell them to drop into a 2-3 zone...the other team has a GREAT 3 pt. shooter (use your imagination here for mid. school ball) who promptly drains a trey on you...parent stand up and starts yelling at you for choosing that "stupid defense - what were you thinking - get your head in the game", etc, etc...you gonna sit and take it - or have a little chat with that parent later...we aren't gonna take it when you as a coach get pissed off and yell across the court at us either...something to think about anyway.

And don't worry about JR calling you a bozo - he calls me and Chuck WAY worse than that!!! (I'll buy you a brownpop some day JR!!!)

Tell you what. Somewhere down the line, you try spending literally hundreds of hours each year recruiting, training, assigning, evaluating and mentoring referees. Do it for about, oh, 20 or 25 years too. Then you sit down EVERY SINGLE YEAR with a bunch of these referees- great,young men and women- and listen to why they are giving up officiating as "not being worth the abuse that we have to take". Give it a try, guys. Let's see how much patience you end up having with bozos like Kaliix that obviously do not respect officials or the job that the officials are trying to do. I have nothing but respect for the coaches that actually COACH! Nobody minds any coach that gets upset occasionally. And that includes T's or the occasional ejection too. However, I certainly do mind middle-school coaches, or any coach really, that think working the officials is a major part of their coaching duties. I have no respect for them, and I will never will have any respect for them.

To be quite honest, I'm as equally embarrassed when I read about other officials that do tolerate coaches that abuse their fellow officials.

Jeeze, as a long suffering Mariners' fan, I think that I should be the one buying. You deserve that much! :D

This is the crux of the matter. Let's face facts. New refs need training and they need opportunities to make mistakes. Even experienced refs have bad days every now and then. It's the abuse and mis-treatment that gets stacked onto those bad days that makes the situation intolerable.

When I was reffing a lot of middle school girls games (last month!), I would toss anyone who stepped out onto the floor to yell at me, unless it was to get my attention for a time-out in a very noisy gym. Talk about aggressive and scary -- someome coming toward you, yelling, is definitely over the top.

Kalix, the problem we're having here is that you came in asking a question, and you didn't like the answer so now you're trying to convince us to change our minds. Several people have agreed with you that the calls may have been bad, that you might have had good reason to be frustrated, that there have been some responses on this board that weren't diplomatic. Even these folks who agree with you this much are saying that stepping out onto the floor to yell such a harsh comment at a ref is out of line. It's just too much.

You need to see this more as a chance to teach your players a lesson about magnanimity, and less as a chance to "legally get in the ref's pocket." What your girls ended up doing was losing any chance to gain any basketball knowledge, because the T from the ref took their attention away from the game and the play, and put it on you and your words and actions. That's just not good coaching. The coaches who end up with players who go on in the game later in life are the ones who say to the girls, "Okay, it feels like the calls aren't going our way, but that's just the game. How are we going to get around their post player? How can we get the ball ahead of the defense? Who can dribble a little faster? Let's try that new play we've been working on. Etc..."

You already knew your team had little chance to win. So screw "win". You concentrate on learn, improve, grow. Let the refs concentrate on fair, consistent and even.

Kalix -- Here's a true story. My daughter played hs basketball a few years ago (craven attempts to impress assignors with my youthful athletic ability prevent me admitting how many years!). When she was a freshman and playing varsity, her team was very, very good. That year, the player of the year for the state of Oregon was on her team. They won their first game at the state tournament (of course!!) and we excitedly went back the next day to see them cream another poor defenseless team. Unfortunately, the refs were racially prejudice. As a parent, I could tell just by looking at them that they weren't going to favor my daughter's all-black team. Many of the parents were uneasy about it. And sure enough, they threw the game. No, they really did. My suspicions were confirmed years later when I was talking about that game to a state official. Many, many people suspected it when they saw it happen, and they were right. It was any sports fans' worst nightmare.

Here's what my daughter's coach said to those girls in the locker room seconds after the game was over. "You girls just got punched in the stomach because you're black. There's no question about what happened out there. But you know what? I don't care. You played hard, you showed a lot of people what backbone is. You should have won. And that's all that matters. The only people that got hurt out there were the girls from XXX School who now think they're better than they are. They're being set up for a fall. But you girls know how good you are. You're great, and you know it. All of you seniors who are going to college are getting scholarships, and coaches from those schools won't change their minds about you because of this. They saw what happened just like everyone else did. You are all big, talented, wonderful girls who deserve to have the very best in life, and you'll get it. No prejudiced, small-minded referees can take that away from you. Period."

All those seniors who went to college DID get scholarships, two at D1 schools. And action was taken to see that the refs weren't quite so far out of line from then on.

The point to this is that a good coach doesn't let a bad set of refs faze him (or her). You must rise above it. Be better players than that. And especially don't earn yourself a T, just because the refs aren't very good. It isn't going to help anyone.

Bozo posts his question, then gets defensive when he doesn't like the answers he gets.

Bozo thinks he should be warned before he's T'ed up since "the school payed money to get in."

Bozo thinks it's appropriate for a middle school girls coach to work the officials.

Bozo thinks that "over the back" and "reaching" are fouls.

Bozo thinks that he'll get the next call if he yells at the officials.

Bozo ignored great posts by footlocker and Butch, and continues to defend his behavior.

Bozo came here, looking for someone to tell him the ref was wrong. He didn't find it. Then he started looking for an argument. Bozo found it.

Bozo thinks he's a coach.

Yeah, he's a Bozo, He just doesn't know it. It took JR to tell him. Get over it.

I've waited to respond to this because many of the things I would have said were already said, but this was not.

You said your team was overmatched, "We'd be lucky to keep it close." I think what you were hoping for was the officials HELPING your cause, but when that did not happen you wanted the officiating to be an excuse for your team losing.

Here is a what happened to me a few years ago. Boys JV game, the home coach was chirping from the first call and he got a T in the second quarter. His team was complaining on calls, too and fell behind by 15 at haltime.

Early in the third, with his team down 20, the coach got another T and was ejected. The varsity coach took over, never said a word, and neither did the players. The home team came back and won by 10 points.

As coach you set the tone, if you "work" the refs, the players act accordingly.

FYI, the AD came in after the game and apologized for the JV coaches behavior and told us he just fired him. ;)

I can see now why you got T'd up. :rolleyes:

Even assuming you're right (which is somewhat doubtful from a physics point of view), your response indicates that the ref had a different view. Now, we can talk about mechanics and how he may have needed to be in a different position, but he has to call what he sees - not what you say he should have seen.

Coach, do you ever find yourself seeing that the other team is committing dozens of these, but you don't see your team doing the same things?

Also, I'll give you fifty bucks if you can prove how, by rule, this constitutes an automatic foul.

I wish, cingram - I've even been criticized by evaluators for this one . . .

No arguments here Jurassic, coaches need to focus more on their players, not us (any level). Funny how their team usually does better when they do 'start coaching' and stop yelling at us. A couple of points........

1) I assume that when a coach has you a bit upset during a game, you maintain your professionalism and don't resort to name calling. Why not here? There are many people reading this forum that are not officials. Why do you want to portray the hothead/name-calling image from the official's side?

2) In my prior post I re-iterated a few points that Kaliix made about applauding officials on a good game and keeping the parents under control when they are yelling at the officials. To me, these are qualities that I, as an official, like to see in coaches. I think you've chose to totally focus on the 'working the referee' aspect, which is fine. I agree that Kaliix probably has a long ways to go in becoming a good, well-rounded coach. I also think that you're assuming that the officials that worked this game in question, were competent officials. I don't make this assumption. Why? Because I have seen and worked with too many incompetent officials that shouldn't work any level of basketball. Many of them were great, wonderful, caring individuals, but were clearly a detriment in officiating basketball.

IMO, for those young officials that have great potential, but end up quitting..........I think it has more to do with the horrific actions (physical and verbal) of parents rather than coaches. Young officials start out working younger kids games, YMCA, AAU, rec league. This is where parents are at their worst. The rash of news stories in the papers about parents assaulting officials proves it. When a young person makes that decision to officiate, they know going in that dealing with coaches is part of it, however, not may think about the aspect of having to continually deal with rude, obnoxious parents.

Ah, excuse me, but who do you think are coaching these teams? 9 times out of 10, the coaches in younger kids YMCA, AAU, and league games are PARENTS. They're the same animal.

Parents/coaches at this leavel are EQUALLY responsible for the problems that we have in losing young officials.

As for Jurassic, he can speak for himself but that's never stopped me from speaking up before. He may have to tolerate a stupid, big mouth coach in a game that he's officating but he doesn't have to tolerate one here and neither does anyone else. A genuine effort was made to answer Bozo's question. Bozo chose to take the low road. There was no turning it around after that.

This is a forum for discussion about officiating the game of basketball. Coaches are always welcome, as long as they take the high road. But we don't have to tolerate them when they take the low road. When hear enough of that crap in the gym. We shouldn't have to read it on a forum that's generously provided for us.

And Brad doesn't tolerate it either. He usually sends them packing. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/thumbs.gif

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 11:44 PM]

I haven't read throught the rest of this thread yet, but i think the beginning of this list will go like this:

1. Reach
2. Over the back

Coach you deserved everything you got, and now your arguing it.

But your not alone out there, i got a writtain complaint from a coach, who was upset because after we had warned her, and I called a travel on her team, she yells, "[name of player] That wasn't a travel" everyone heard it, and we t'd her up, 3 months later, we have to do a write up.

Its one game, give it up and move on. Just don't make the same mistake again. T's are part of the game.


[Edited by ref18 on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 10:03 PM]

1) What I post here is what I believe in. That's true wheher Kaliix, or anyone else reponding to my posts for that matter, likes it or not. We have coaches that come to this forum on a regular basis- HawksCoach, PA Coach, CYO Butch, etc., because they know that a good, working knowledge of the rules is gonna give them a big advantage over the bozos like Kaliix who think that working the officials is the only way to go. These guys that have been coming here for a while don't just give lip-service to teaching sportsmanship, but they actually believe in it. I respect them greatly for that, and I think that they know that. Note that this certainly doesn't mean that we agree on everything either. Coaches like Kaliix do not have my respect, will never have my respect, and I'll be damned if I'm gonna be two-faced and pretend that they do.

2) No, I certainly didn't assume ANYTHING about the officials that did the game that Kaliix is referring to. I commented on Kaliix's actions the way that he himself wrote about- his yapping, working the officials constantly, etc. Those actions are WRONG, no matter how good or bad the officials actually were. You seem to be the one that is hinting that they were incompetent officials. How exactly did you know that? And what have you ever done about the incompetent officials that you worked with anyway? Did you ever try to help those individuals become better officials? And you also just called some your fellow officials a detriment to officiating basketball? And then you're saying that I talked too harshly about Kaliix? Oh my! And I don't think that I'd really better comment any further on that. If I did, this thread would disappear in a hurry.

And as for your point that more officials quit because of parents than because of coaches, that is a complete reversal from I've been hearing from the officials in my area that are hanging up their whistles. They expected to hear crap from the parents when they started officiating. They didn't expect to hear the same sh*t from a middle-school girls' coach who should have been teaching sportsmanship along with the basketball skills. Iow, I don't agree with you on that one either.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 3rd, 2004 at 10:06 PM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kaliix

Even easier ones.

The player dribbles a ball with both hands.

A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer.

A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball.

Again, this is only a partial list... :-)




last time i checked, a double dribble and the intentional kicks weren't fouls. ;)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ref18

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaliix Even easier ones. The player dribbles a ball with both hands. A defender kicks the ball thinking he is playing soccer. A player dribbles the ball picks it up and then starts to dribble it again with no one else having touched the ball. Again, this is only a partial list... :-) last time i checked, a double dribble and the intentional kicks weren't fouls. ;)

If you check you'll see that it's perfectly legal to dribble with both hands at times.

i think we can say we now have 2 bballcoach types on this board.

I read like 4 messages and im going to say...


If a middle school coach is going to get on me about consistency I'm going to give him the biggest smile I can and try not to be a total smart-*** with some sort of comment. If he calls me out infront of a gym then yeah.... I'll hit ya for it. I told a coach, and I felt bad for this... "If you'd spend less time hollaring at me and more time encouraging your kids you might not have ended up in this position where your down by 14 with 2 minutes to go."

And my partner.... the sly devil he is... jokingly added.... and we're not bailbondsmen either. She laughed and it was all good.

I see why I do not work MS games anymore.
 

I am getting in on this late. WOW!!!

Peace

Come on now JR, stop holding back...tell us how you REALLY feel! :) (That way I can copy and paste it and use it in my training classes I lead)

That is why I said usually... I have let some go because of the context (they weren't PO'd at me but frusterated that they missed a layup or something) but I have called others (especially when a player not agreeing with the call tossed the ball over my head into the corner) - that one is the no-brainer.

To those who tried to give me an honest answer, even though you didn't agree, thank you.

I wasn't sure I should have been T'ed up, but in reading the litany of posts this has generated and in giving some thought to the constructive criticism that my comments have generated, I see now why I received a technical foul and why it was deserved.

To those of you who think that a coach shouldn't try and talk to the referees, we are just going to have to disagree on that one. If you don't like the term working the ref's fine. I have seen coaches that have rode the ref's all game and I don't particularly like them either. When I talk about conversing with the ref's, I mean doing in a nice respectful manner while picking my spots and getting them to consider the manner in which they judge calls. I have seen good examples of conversing with(reading working) the ref's, performed with respect and sportsmanship by excellent coaches who could manage to coach a game, carry on a pleasant conversation with a referee at the same time and manage to get the ref's to atleast consider their future calls.

I umpire, so I do know a bit about having to make calls. I personally think that refereeing a basketball game is probably the hardest job in all officiating. Most calls are judgement type calls. To be able to make those kinds of constant judgements, while keeping a game going (read have some flow to it instead of being bogged down with whistles) and doing it in a fair and even manner that is equitable to both sides, is a terribly difficult endeavor. I have much respect for those who manage to do it well. It is not easy.

To those who resorted to name calling and snide remarks, I can honestly say that I feel bad for you. While you may not have agreed with what I was saying, there is no room in intelligent discourse for that kind of behaviour. You can vehemently disagree with someone with out making personal remarks or resorting to juvenile sarcasm and snide comments. To say that you would react one way on a message board but differently on the court is, at best, specious. You likely deserve all the comments, attitude and remarks that your pompous, cantankerous, holier than thou attitude get you while on the court.

Look at the college semi-final between Duke and UConn
Note Caron Butlers last second shot and foul call three years back against NC State
Unless your Shaq
Coach, why are you trying to compare your middle school girls to NC State and Shaq? The rules are different at each level and calls are made differently at each level. You need to compare to last year's tournament games in your middle school district. That is where you need to be. You can't work the refs at this level. Even if you paid to play.
Refs are human, and each game will be called as each human sees fit. Differently, each time. And just a helpful hint. To get the ref's ear, be polite and respectful with questionable calls. That amount of respect will go a long way. But, then again, teaching an old dog new tricks.....This forun is about officiating, and the rules interpretations, not telling us how we should call a game and compare middle school games to DI and NBA. That is a far reach.

I only offered an example of a college game to reference something that people here might actually be able to relate to. If I offered an example of a play that happened locally, you really wouldn't get the reference now would you???

The Shaq line actually had a ;-) after it. That clearly implies a little joke, not a comparison of middle school to the NBA.

Reading comprehension skills are a wonderful thing.

Sorry, BktBallRef. When I said parents, I meant the people sitting in the bleachers. And I realize that quite often a parent is the coach. I often feel sorry for the kid on the team whose dad is the coach, because of how the coach acts. I have had to clear a gym 3 times to finish ballgames because the parents were so out of control. And you know, every time, after we did that, the players played better and stopped yappin’, coaches coached, and the game was a breeze to officiate. My experience is that the more the parents yell, the kids often follow suit on the court, and the play goes downhill.

I never said that there haven’t been officials quit because of bad coaches. It is just my opinion after doing hundreds of these type of games that parents have more of a negative effect on young officials than the coaches.

BktBallRef, can you please show me where Kaliix took the low road? Was it before or after he was called a Bozo?

Jurassic – All I’m saying is that in this world there are teachers that have no business teaching, there are doctors that have no business practicing, and there are officials that have no business officiating. I am not talking about anyone specifically, never did. But this is reality. I have no idea who these officials were, and never said they were good or bad.

And yes, I do help out younger officials. Actually, that is one of the aspects of officiating I enjoy most. Giving tips, and guidance to make these officials feel and act more confident on the court is awesome. I also talk with them about how to deal with coaches on the sideline, because coaches are a part of the game. I don’t talk about dealing with parents, because they are NOT part of the game, eventhough many think they are.

I find it interesting that the rule books give officials many alternatives/penalties for dealing with coaches (directly), and none for parents (directly). Yet the officials in your area expect, and are OK with, taking crap from those they cannot deal with directly, yet quit because of a coach that they could deal with directly.

1. Questioning the referees integrity is never nice or respectful.

2. At that level, you riding the refs will rub off on your players. Be a role model, take the call and move on.

3. Here's a hint for future games, ask a question based on the rules, not based on the judgement of the official. The official's judgement is what he/she uses to tell them what to call. It will not change by you yelling, so you shouldn't. ex: Mr. Referee, could you please explain to me why you called that a block??

Ask it nicely, and most times you will recieve an answer, however, don't ask during a live ball situation, because the official is trying to focus on the game and not you.

I think that's all i have to say for now ;)

My biggest piece of advice, if you can't take the BS from parents, officiating isn't for you, because they're never going to stop. As a younger official myself, I've learned to deal with it. I ignore them. And commonsenseref, you are absolutely right with your comments about the parents being the main cause of the problems, I've had a pissed off kid tell her mom to shut up with regards to yelling at the refs because he was embarassed by her comments. You need a thick skin, and worry about what's going on in the game and not the stands, because you're there to referee, not police the parents.

First of all, I do think that we need to back off of the "bozo" comments -- let's maintain some level of respect around here.

Second, I think that the continuing problem between coaches and officials is that they want us to see things their way and we want them to see things our way. That will never happen.

However, we should at least listen to each other!

It reminds me of something that happened to me at a camp this past weekend. Both of my partners call a foul on the way to the basket (whether it was or not is not the point of this discussion :) ) and the ball was blocked while it was still on its way up, but after it had hit the backboard.

The coach started complaining that it was goaltending, stating "The ball hit the glass!" Since this tournament was being played under high school rules, I quickly explained "Coach, that's an NBA rule."

He did not even listen to me and started repeating himself. So, I stepped closed (from table opposite) and said louder, "Coach, that is an NBA rule!"

He doesn't listen AGAIN and, in addition, his PAB assistant coach pops his head out and starts yelling about a goal tend also!

So, finally, I step even closer and say, "COACH, THAT IS A NBA RULE -- WE ARE PLAYING BY HIGH SCHOOL RULES -- IT IS NOT A GOALTEND. THAT'S IT!"

I think that he finally got the message, although I'm sure that he still thinks that I was wrong!

Listen before you speak!

I believe that there is no reference from D1 to middle school girls. There is no need to reference to anything, other than your game. And the message still is be respectful and not call out the official during the game. Period. You have not gained that respect from any official, yet. Work on it.

In reference to commonsenseref's comment that parents are the cause, I say that the coach is the root of attitude. If parents see coachs riding and blasting refs, parents are quicker to jump the ref. And the kids will follow the coach on the court with that attitude. The coach sets the stage of attitude on the court.

Kaliix, I'm sure you had a tough game, but don't let this one game get you rilled up. The game at your level is for the kids, no matter how much you paid to play. It's for the kids! Keep that in mind and you will have better experiences coaching middle school girls.

Immediately I'm now really aggravated and I yell at the ref, "Come on! Call 'em both ways!!"

You were not talking to the ref. You yelled. That is why you were penelized. Bad behavior on the court. If you had talked to him about the call, then you probably wouldn't have been gotten a T. If the ref was not talkative, then you move on, or be the howler and get the T.

Does this look like you were talking to the refs. You are right, talk to the refs and everyone on this board will agree with you, talk to the refs, respectfully. Not yelling and "working the refs." That is the problem here. You did not talk to the refs.

OK with me canning the Bozo appellation. However, Brad, do NOT expect me to treat so-called coaches like Kallix with respect. I can't do that and look at myself in a mirror later. I have NO respect for him, or for any other person that employs the same coaching tactics that he uses and advocates. If you think that I'm going overboard, either delete my posts or delete me. Your choice.

To reffish:
Dude, why are beating a dead horse and quoting me out of context. I already admitted thatSomeone asked for a list of no brainer calls, not no brainer calls at the middle school level. In response to that question, I am entitled to reference whatever I want.

Reffish, I got to agree with you on that one. One of my responsibilities to my players is to make sure that everyone involved with our team displays sportsmanship at all times. Before the season starts, I hand out a "Letter to Parents" that lays out my expectations on them. This includes a couple of bullets about what kind on behavior is acceptable during games and what is not. I specifically mention all yelling at or to the officials. I also tell them that egregious violation will result in <b>ME</b> having game management remove them from the gym. Over the many years I've been doing this, I've only had a couple of parents get carried away enough to even approach the line. Usually, when that happens, all I need to do is call back into the stands something like "Hey Joe, lighten up on the refs, ok?" and things settle down. About three years ago I had one wife make her husband leave after my second "Hey Joe", but that was the most extreme it ever got. My favorite threat (never actually had to do it) was to call a timeout specifically to ask someone to quite down. That would bring the ire of all the fans down on them, and it would also hurt the team by costing us a timeout. Talk about peer pressure.

Frankly, the biggest problem I've ever had with parents has been them coaching from the sideline, not "working the refs". Talk about destructive behavior! But that's a thread for another board.

Good Kaliix. See you on the court, and hopefully you won't work me.

People like you give civilized society a bad name. There is never any reason to disrespect anyone just because you disagree with their opinion. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!!!

I didn't call you any names and never insulted you personally. You can disagree with me but is still no reason to be snide, insulting, and rude.

If you can't look at yourself in the mirror because you treat people with respect, even the ones you disagree with, I suggest therapy. Seriously

:confused:

I'll take a game, any level, with no parents in the stands any day of the week. Most parents don't need any guidance from their kid's coach, they have their own agendas.

I've had games both ways. Parents loud and obnoxious, coach quiet. Parents quiet until the coach starts chirping then they join in. I've also had games with chirping coaches and quiet parents.... Really there is no set guideline as to what will happen.

I have tended to see that parents follow the coach, or go off on their own. It is rare to see a chirpy coach and quiet parents. I am having parent issues myself this year, and can't wait for the season to end (not my usual feeling - it's been a tough year!). I don't say much, but I have one awful parent and a couple of other difficult ones. Two more tourneys . . .

By way of introduction, I'm relatively new to this board, but for more than 40 years, whether as a competitor, coach(10 years GS/MS in CYO league), for recreation, or as an official, basketball has been an active part of my life.

I've been biting my tongue on this one, as most of my feelings have already been expressed - by Butch in particular.

This I feel I need to say:
If ever there was a justification for MANDATORY ASEP training & certification for youth coaches, this thread exemplifies the need.

The concept is simple: KIDS FIRST - WINNING SECOND


At the GS/MS level, everyone needs to strive to a higher standard - that includes coaches, parents and officials. This is the age at which teamwork and sportsmanship concepts are developed for these kids, and we all need to do our best to set a positive example. IMHO we all have responsibilities:

Parents:
1. Be positive and upbeat - cheer for good play on both teams.
2. During the game, let the coach do the coaching. It's very confusing to the kids to hear directions shouted from multiple sources.

Coaches:
1. Try to make it fun. In practice, work in some drills that are fun, but still help develop skills.
2. Strive to win - not to do so would be dishonest - but keep it in perspective. In every game there is a winner and a loser. Help them understand that playing against tougher opponents & sometimes losing as a result is how you get better. Let them know by your words and actions that if they tried their best, win lose or draw, they're winners in your eyes, that you're proud of them, and that they should be proud of themselves.
3. During the game be positive and upbeat - keep your cool and keep coaching. At this age, it seems like when the ball is tipped, half or more of what they worked so hard on in practice suddenly evaporates - it's your job to help them remember, but be positive, supporting and constructive in doing so. Negative criticism has no place in youth sports.
4. Be respectful of the officials - let them do their job and you do yours. Don't be afraid to ask them questions, but do it in a calm and respectful manner. If there's something you feel a need to bring to their attention, it's OK to do so, but be aware how you do it - a quiet "ref, my players are complaining that #xx is using her elbow to clear out - I'd appreciate it if you'd watch for it" during a stop in play or while he's passing the bench in transition is fine - yelling something less diplomatic across the court isn't.
5. If necessary, educate your parents in proper decorum - then lead by example.

Officials:
1.Give every game your best effort, regardless of the level - a 6th grade girls game is every bit as important to the players as a varsity HS boys game would be to its players. Be consistent & adjust to the level of the game - there are things (violations, not fouls) you don't call as tightly at 6th grade as you would at HS because the players skills simply haven't fully developed yet. Keep the game moving - it helps keep it more fun for everyone involved.
2. Remember that you and your partner are most likely the only two impartial people in the building. You need to be the calm, collected voice of reason in an otherwise chaotic world - don't get drawn into an emotional confrontation with a coach or spectator.
3. Be approachable, and open to respectful communication with the coaches - let them know pregame it's ok to ask you questions during a break in play and what you expect in terms of their conduct during the game. If they start to push the envelope, let them know, but if that doesn't curb the conduct don't be afraid to penalize immediately.
4. Ignore the spectators. If for some reason one of them really gets out of line, notify game management (gym monitor, etc.) and let them deal with it. Some youth leagues make the team coach responsible for fan conduct.

The most important thing for everyone is make it fun for the kids. Help them learn to love basketball and it's something they will be able to participate in - in one capacity or another - for the rest of their likes. Even at the HS varsity level, the very last thing I say to the captains pre-game is: "play hard, play fair, but don't forget to have fun while you're doing it".

Tim
I have done this for years, not as long as you. I used to run a NYSCAA certification program for coaches in a league I ran. No cert, no coach. End of subject.

Sadly, I have quit thinking that "training" does much for many coaches. It is a good thing to introduce and remind people of the concept of teaching the game and making it fun, but it is a competition. Some people will never be able to handle competition in a responsible manner. As soon as you put a score up, regardless of age or level of play, there are a fairly large number of people out there who will care just a bit too much. And unfortunately, some think that the way to satisfy their competitive urge is to coach.

I will readily admit that I am competitive and that is in part why I coach. I also like to teach, to see a team improve, to see players grow in skills and confidence, etc. And I have learned to control my emotions, out of decency to the kids I coach and out of a desire to have long term success. Many of my peers have no idea how to control their personal feelings when coaching. Some do, but there are far too many who do not. And that will not change in a sport that needs volunteers to run programs. Its simply that the wrong type of person volunteers for all the wrong reasons. And programs need coaches, so they take them every time.

Maybe there were no parents there.... or perhaps they were just quieter than the coach. :)

I think it has usually happened with the fans far off the floor and very few of them.

Unfortunate, but true - and therein lies the problem. It's supposed to be about the kids, not the egos of the adults trying to vicariously relive their youth through their kids.

I applaud the efforts that you and thousands of volunteer coaches like you put forth. You do make a difference.

In all fairness, I've run across very few youth coaches that are really and truely jerks, and they are easily dealt with. By contrast, a good number of volunteer coaches either simply don't understand bench decorum because nobody ever taught it to them, or wind up copping an attitude to cover up a lack of coaching skills or knowledge. Unfortunately, the majority of officials that work these games are those with less experience & often as a result are less likely to set firm limits early, which compounds the problem.

Will a little coaching education, either formal training or informally on the court - help? Maybe....but for the sake of the kids, I think it's worth a shot.

You've seemed to show the official disrespect by disagreeing with his opinion.

Sounds a bit hipocritical if you ask me. :)

Hey Cowlicks, nobody said that you were a bozo b/c of your opinion. If you haven't figured that out yet. . . :rolleyes:

t'ed up
 

The bottom line is, none of us was there. Not having been there to see the calls or the coach's actions, none of us actually know whether the T was appropriate or not.

Sometimes, intentional or not, officials call games a little unevenly. At the same time, coaches also look at them and complain unevenly too. Everybody always thinks they are right, and only occasionally does either side ever really look at it objectively.

On the surface only, the comment the coach made was not deserving of a T. However, it is also quite possible he had been complaining the entire game and this was an "accumulation" T. None of us know. The argument is unwinnable because we weren't there.

I will say though, that while yes, he is a "middle school girls coach", that was a "middle school girls ref" too.

I have been on both sides, and both sides are wrong on occasion. I think sometimes it would help if both sides were a little more open to criticism.

Chuck,
If your intent was irony, then Bravo! Well done.

My instincts tell me, however, that your not quite that clever...

In which case, thank you so much for reiterating my point even better than I could have.

(shaking my head) Geez, you guys kill me :rolleyes:

Could you please explain how you know that the official was a "middle school girls ref" when you weren't there? And exactly what is a "middle school girls ref" anyway?

My observations...

"Keeping Officials honest???" "Keeping it Fair"?

C'mon there's an automatic implication. Although it is not a true indication by any means what was the total foul count for the game? or is it that your team was outmatched, out gunned that you had to foul to stay in in.

Here's something to consider and I think most officials would agree... When you have a poorly officiated game it ALWAYS favors the team with the lesser skill. If the officials were calling it tight, maybe the better team knew how to not foul, move the ball, fastbreak, etc. To be agressive against a team that outmatches you will get you fouls...

I will admit... I MISS Calls.

How many times does an official actually hammer a team? Not very many.

I got accused of hammering a team not too long ago, 2 officials 5 fouls on the starting center. 4 of the 5 fouls were off ball. (3 by me 2 by my partner) I know the coach was not watching.. When we tried to explain to the coach what the player was doing WE got dismissed as not knowing what the game is or how to call it, The coach did not want to listen us and the kid eventually fouled out.

Last week Player sets a pick, the defensive player tries to go around and the screener rolls right into defensive player. Pretty obvious screening foul. Coach asks what he did. (Pretty calmly as a matter of fact) I tell him the kid screened and then rolled into him. Coach tells me that kids can roll anyway they want... (yeah right) Coach in this game eventually is tossed... However doing higher level games I have heard the good coaches say to a player who has just picked up his second foul early on a screen, You see how it is going to be called this game, clean it up... The coach knows his kid sets picks and many marginal ones and wont get away with them so the kid cleans it up. Another set of refs would not call em and they would probably set bad picks all night.

Same tournament, coach tells me something and I ask him if he is accusing me of cheating He says No I just want you to keep it fair... I then told him that he now is accusing me of cheating, and that I would not listen to him the rest of the game.

How many times does a coach hear a slap and see a swipe at the ball, and the slap is the shooter? Been there seen that.
I truly have a hard time believing that a coach would have the best angle of a jump shot at the other end of the floor when there are 10 players running around and at least two officials. But maybe you did because one official was out of "position". BUt were the officials really out of position? I have heard the "You need to be in position to make that call" when I was exactly in the right position... The coach just did not know where "right position" was...
I do know coaches who know exactly where were are supposed to be and have herad coaches yell " If you made that call then who was watching off ball! because that is your partenrs call"! I would love to see the instant replay of this one foul...

Remember three fouls and a T rarely influence a game. What we dont know here what were the turnovers? How many turnovers were unforced? How many free-throws were missed? what was the shooting percentage of each team? We all make mistakes, but when you add them up the losing team usually makes more that the winning team and the referees combined.

Huh? What's i-r-o-n-y? :confused:

My point was not ironic, but straight-forward. No one here is slamming you b/c of your opinion that the game was called unevenly. No one.

We're slamming you b/c you are dumb enough to come to a website that is read almost exclusively by officials to complain about your officials; and then "dumber" enough to be surprised when we take offense.

Think for a second about the response an official would get if he (or she) went to a Coaching forum and made a post like this:

"I was working a middle school girls game and the coach was calling the stupidest plays. He wouldn't give the ball to his tallest girl and she could've dominated. I figured it was my job to help him out, so from the endline I shouted at him to feed it inside. Well, he yells at me to just do my job. So I T'd up his butt!! What could he have been thinking?!?!"

Do you think the responses would be overwhelmingly supportive of that official's post? Well, duh. You did the same thing in here. Now go home.

Could it be because he's either too lazy or ignorant to distinguish your from you're?

Or could it be because he's too ignorant to realize he screwed up the quote on his sig line?

"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming WOW! WHAT A RIDE."

I truly lament when a thread like this takes up so much of our valuable time. I much more enjoy the intelligent conversations from our members regarding unusual plays and logical interpretations of rules that shows it takes a bright person to officiate. I truly wish the coaches that participate in this forum would be more like Hawks coach who may disagree with you but always have a logical, articulate response for you. PLEASE, Let's try to stay clear of argumentative threads like this. They serve no useful purpose. This is the BEST forum for honing/improving officiating skills and I'd like to keep it that way!

It's called troll control, if a coach or fan is acting like a troll, why not cut them to shreads?

It has no effect on the threads with real topics, so there is no problem.

Like I said it is a waste of time and we end up stooping down to their level. That is the problem.

It only wastes your time if you let it, and most of the posts did not stoop at all, they were very thoughtful and had good intentions.

It's not a waste of time if the troll goes away and doesn't return. It's also not a waste of time if enough of us get on these uh, people (OK, Brad?) and maybe make them think a little bit about their actions. As Chuck pointed out before, this is certainly NOT the venue that should allow this type of person to encourage and promote their coaching philosophy of "working officials". Especially "working officials" in a middle school girls game. Maybe if they find out just how unsporting others really view their actions, they might just maybe think a l'il bit the next time before they go into their act. And it is a deliberate "act", and not a spontaneous response to what may have been a bad call. It's an act that is calculated to harass and influence officials, in order to gain an unwarranted advantage. Nothing more, nothing less.

JR, I'm with you on that. If the troll goes away, I am with you on that 100%

IMHO, i don't think this troll realises what he/she's up against, and she doesn't understand that these types of comments do not add to the constructive aspect of this forum. If you want to continue to rip this kaliix to shreds, please continue, you're adding valuable humour to my life.


However, if you do not agree with this, don't read this thread anymore, because i don't think its gonna get any better.

Jur.Ref;

Come on now. This isn't politics. The poster used the phrase "middle school girls coach" in a derogatory manner to put down the coach. All I am saying is that while he was coaching middle school girls, the official was calling a middle school girls game, so they are basically in the same zip code there. I am not trying to argue about this, only being fair. If you think you are too good to be dealing with middle school girls coaches, don't officiate middle school girls games.

I have to say that I didn't think that the coach's original post was that bad. He didn't say "all officials suck" or "all officials are cheaters". He didn't even say that about the officials in the game to which he was referring.

He simply asked if a technical was warranted in the situation that he described. Personally, I think that if he YELLED, "Call it both ways!" across the floor it certainly could warrant a technical foul. Maybe after seeing the opinions of several other officials he will change his viewpoint somewhat.

I think that it's valuable to have coaches visit this board. If more did maybe they would understand the rules better or know how to interact with officials on a more reasonable level.

I don't *hate* coaches like some officials do. Sure, I think that some of them are complete idiots and raving lunatics because of what they do on the court. But, business is business -- it's not personal. Just deal with them in the appropriate manner and move on.

I'm not completely sure about the point that you are trying to make. The poster was trying to remind Kallix that he was coaching middle school girls. Not the Lakers in the NBA Finals. Leave the "working officials" up to Phil Jackson, iow. And I'm too good to deal with middle school girls coaches? I assign all the games at all levels in my area for the association that I belong to. I deal with middle school coaches all the time. I also assign myself to quite a few of these games to train new officials. Most of the middle school coaches that I deal with are very good people, who honestly believe in the tenets of sportsmanship and fair play, and who also know that their main job is COACHING. They leave the officiating up to us. They may question a call, or get upset at an obviously bad call- but THEY DO NOT WORK OFFICIALS. They also know that, quite often, they are going to get newer officials and trainees on their games. They allow for that. Being realistic, they don't expect to have NCAA D1 quality officials assigned to their games. Unfortunately, a few of them are similar to Kallix-i.e.- let's work the officials to see if we can gain ourselves an extra advantage, or let's worry more about trying to influence an official than actually spending some time teaching their team. Especially teaching their team a little bit about sportsmanship.

Also, I don't categorize either coaches or officials as "middle school" anything. I do recognize that a few coaches at all levels try to justify their own shortcomings by blaming the officials for everything that they can come up with. Thankfully, they are a small minority. I also recognize that they are some officials out there that are, quite plain and simply, not very good. Unfortunately, due to a general shortage of officials (not just in my area, but right across the country), we have to use these officials. You know what? Even if they're bad, as long as they are consistent and equally fair to both teams in their game-calling, they will never cost anybody a ballgame. Just because they are not good officials does not give Kallix or any other coach license to work, try and influence, or constantly complain about the job that they are doing.

That's where I'm coming from,coach.

JR,

That is a great point. I don't think that there is a middle school girls game anywhere in the country that can be influenced by the officiating! 7th and 8th grade girls are still learning how to play the game and their skills are, for the most part, not very good.

Making layups, not turning the ball over, and hitting free throws will far more influence the game than any call or non-call by an official.

At higher levels officiating CAN influence the game. When one of the best players on a team picks up three fouls quickly in the first half, for example, it can affect how that team can compete. But at the lower levels I totally agree that coaches should focus on their players rather than the officials. The life lesson that coaches could teach their players by telling them not to worry about the officiating and focus on their playing would be one well worth learning.

Very true, Brad. And I think coaches that teach ballplayers to make layups, not turn the ball over and hit free throws usually win a heckuva lot more games in the long run than coaches that waste their time "working" officials do.

You know you guys are reading way to much into this working the officials stuff.

Thinking back on the whole year, most games I didn't even bother the officials. As a whole, the games were officiated fairly well and pretty fairly. Usually, I more often applaud the good calls then worry about the bad ones. If I would say anything to the refs, it would be more like "Ohhh, that was close." or maybe "hummm, thought she had position." But even then this was only occasionally. More often then not, I was too busy cheering on my players.

Only two games all year I thought were officiated badly. One game got completely out of hand. The ref wouldn't call anything on either team. It went beyond letting 'em play to the point were I thought someone was going to get hurt. Even my kids were like, "Coach, I'm getting nailed out!" It was really ridiculous.

I already said once that I was wrong and I deserved the T. I was trying to work the officials that one game because while I may be a bit biased, it was plainly obvious that they got my best player out of the game early with two close calls and then wouldn't call any kind of similiar contact going to the other way. I may not officiate basketball and may only be a coach, but I can tell when there is contact on my player that should be a foul. I certainly could be wrong sometimes, but not every time.

But hey, what I did was wrong. And that's fine. I learned from this thread and if I ever have to deal with that kind situation again, I'll certainly handle it differently. That is why I made the post in the first place, to get input and learn, not to troll, like some have wrongly implied.

But I'll tell you what, you guys as a group, with some exceptions, really are disappointing. You think that it is perfectly acceptable to be rude, to name call, to be insulting and judgemental just because you may not like someones point of view. I did nothing in the way of name calling and with the possible exception of a couple "smart" comments was generally respectful and pleasant.

So much for intelligent discourse, open minds, and trying to achieve a greater understanding. Your group as a whole acted more like 5th graders picking on someone who was different than impartial adult officials trying to have an intelligent conversation.

And that is just freakin' sad! Pathetic really,... and it's too bad!:rolleyes:

I'm done and outa here....

(Elvis has left the building)

Kaliix,

I think that you have to understand that you see things from a coach's perspective and we see things from an official's perspective.

You state that you don't make many comments to officials, but have included several examples here -- thought she had position, that was close, and the one that got you into trouble: call it both ways.

But, we have been (and are in every game) on the receiving end of those comments. Day in and day out. Every single freaking game.

Trust me when I say that it gets old. Listening to the same comments over and over from coaches, players, and fans that do not have the first clue about the rules of the game.

From those yelling "3 seconds" as the offensive team rebounds and shoots over and over, to explaining that a player does not have to be standing still to "take a charge", to arguing with a coach or fan who thinks that the rules in the NBA are the same ones used in lower levels... I just gets old and it's the same crap every single game.

I think that the bottom line is that there is really no reason for a middle school coach to be saying anything to the officials. The old line about being afraid that someone is going to get hurt is one that we've heard over and over -- usually from a coach or parent who does not feel that they are "getting calls".

You *can* get hurt in basketball -- and generally it is not the official's fault. There is one way to guarantee that your child is not hurt: don't play. Can games get "out of control"? Yes. Can a middle school girls game get out of control? As the British might say, "Not bloody likely."

For all your disappointment in the "open mindedness" of officials, I assure you that collectively we are much more disappointed in the lack of sportsmanship shown by coaches at every level.

Good response for all of us, Brad. The only thing that I could add is the fact that the great majority of officials, believe it or not, also care just as much for the ballplayers' welfare as the coaches, or even the parents for that matter. We don't want players hurt ever, even though injuries are part of the game sometime. We do want the best team to win- fair and square. We are also certainly not perfect. We will miss some calls every now and then, but we'll damn well miss them honestly.

Don't let the

http://cheetah.ma.iup.edu/courses/ls499/south/door.jpg

hit you on the

http://web.mit.edu/spb/www/donkey.jpg

on the way

http://www.eastlakell.org/umpires/Um...s/image016.jpg

Well, Kaliix, you're going out with about the same amount of class that you came in with.