Did anyone see Chauncey Billups' fake double dribble at the end of last night's Pistons-Pacers game (player passes off hand over dribbling hand without touching ball - looks like he's picking the dribble up)? He did it so well, the player in front of him jumped up to block the pass, and the referee behind him actually called a double dribble.

Talk about outsmarting yourself.

Let's say he did double dribble (thanks Rick) ...

I wonder if the ref would call it if the defender didn't fall for the fake? No disadvantage, right? Is that why NBA refs make the big bucks?

[Edited by lrpalmer3 on May 25th, 2004 at 03:22 PM]

But it wasn't a double dribble right?

No double dribble there! ESPN actually had a great second camera angle that clearly showed there was NO violation. That ref made a terrible call due to being out of position.

Now what I would like to know is could this have been a correctable error and if one of the other refs had the guts to confer with his partner could the call been rescinded (I realize that it probably would never happen but is it even feasible to consider as an option?)???

If not, it should be correctable because right after that call, I believe Indiana scored four unanswered points, making the game a lot closer then it probably should have been.

"correctable error" seems like the wrong term. Maybe just an overturned call.

Another official once incorrectly called a double dribble in my primary. After all 10 players, the bench personnel, the scorer, the fans, and even the bball looked at him funny, guess what he did? He asked me (from all the way across the court) if it was a double dribble.

Suggestions? Then I'll tell you what I did (which by no means is the "correct" way).

Good grief.

No, it's not "correctable." If one of the other refs saw something different, all he can do is approach the calling official and say what he saw. If the calling official wants to stick with his call, he can do so since he cannot be overruled. If he wants to change, he may do so.
Sounds like this play was awful close, and there's little chance an official is going to stick his nose into a close call like this; especially on a dribbling violation.

Chances are the other refs were doing their jobs and weren't watching the ball.

Nothing like a great camera angle to make fans think they're referees.

Yeah, they can correct that. Also when your partner goes and calls a foul that was perfectly clean... go tell him he missed that and call it an inadvertant whistle! :rolleyes:

These guys (NBA refs) get so much grief over one call, and a violation at that, that it makes ESPN. Not one of us would do any better and we are picking on him and suggesting his partners come over and tell him he is wrong. Seriously! These guys are the best trained officials in the country and we think they should overturn a violation call.

I agree with Snaq... GOOD GRIEF!

[Edited by dhodges007 on May 25th, 2004 at 04:18 PM]

It was a great camera angle, not b/c you could see that he didn't double-dribble but b/c you could see the postion of the trail. He was completely straight-lined behind Chauncy.

I thought it was a good example of why you should not make a call if you are not in position and do not see it clearly. I was pretty suprised that he called it due to the traveling violations that happen every other play in the NBA.

That being said this is an NBA Official that is working a Conference Final so let me finish by saying that the official that was there for Prince's block was in perfect position and made a great no-call. The commentators had one thing right, they kept saying "This is a very hard game to officiate" I will second that notion!

It would be a really long half time in the locker room if my partner did that in a game... I hope my response would be, that was close... dd "B" ball on the sideline. And play on. I am not sure how to not embarrass your crew anymore than it already is at this point.

What did you do and what level were you working?

I agree with you dhodges007 that these are some of the best officials in the world and not one of us could hold their jock-strap or the female version (help me out Juulie :)). But I do try and learn from situations that occur in these games, not by seeing how things are handled with NBA rules but by thinking about how I would handle it using NFHS rules. I thought this was a good learning example of why you should only call it if you see it, no matter how much the home fans or couch-potatoes don't like the no call.

I kinda thought it was a great example of why players shouldn't try to get too fancy. I've seen many players pull this move in street ball, but almost every time it's done in an official game it's been called a double dribble. And while the NBA does have a different definition of traveling than the rest of the world, they are pretty quick to call other violations correctly.

Maybe the pros should stop watching the And 1 Tour dvds.

I would point at the scorer and tell him to lace up his shoes because there is about to be a substitution :p

I agree that we can learn from this situation. :)

I agree their the best at what they do, but that BLOWN call almost cost the Pistons the game. Lets say it did cost them the game, would you keep your same position. I know refs are human, and everyone makes mistakes, but when they make a mistake, anyone can point it out. Whats the difference between a ref making a mistake and a player/coach making a mistake? So because he is an offical, we can't critize him? It was obvious that it wasn't a double dribble (although from where he was he may not have seen it).

...uuhhhhh..... ?????

Are you serious? Are you an official? There is a difference between pointing out a mistake and blaming the official for BLOWING a call and "almost costing" the game. Did the official then turn around and play poor defense to allow them to score four "unanswered" points? It's ironic that you blame the official for the unanswered points, but not the five guys on the court who could 1. play defense and stop those points or 2. score at the other end. Give me a break! :rolleyes:

Big deal if he missed a double dribble call either by calling one that shouldn't have been or missing one that should have been called. One violation doesn't change the course in a game. If that were the case, we would be looking at the TV monitors during a lot of out of bounds calls too. Or we could just look at replay after each whistle.

Are you saying that if Detroit had lost the game then they could have blamed it on one phantom dribbling violation? That's just flat out rediculous, frankly. Yes, if Detroit had lost the game, I'd maintain my position.

My position is that he may or may not have missed the call, but the call did not and could not have been blamed for the Pistons giving up points at the other end. Chances are good that the refs may have flubbed another close call the other direction during this game.

I repeat, Good Grief.

I think that it's called a "jillstrap", or something like that. I know that some female hockey players wear something like that.

Just my opinion, but it's not the players' responsibility to dumb down their game for the poor old referees. We want the players to do cool, great things that are within the rules. It's the referees' responsibility to be in position to see the whole play and rule correctly.


And if the off-hand never contacted the ball, then "almost every time" it was called incorrectly. The fact that all the refs you've seen call it wrong does not imply that it should be called that way.

Maybe you should take a look at the NBA's traveling rules. They are almost identical to FED and NCAA rules. The difference is in the way the NBA allows the pivot foot to be established. But once the pivot is established, traveling is called exactly the same way.

I hope there was supposed to be a smilie after that, b/c I seriously doubt that NBA officials have the time or inclination to watch that nonsense.

As always, just my opinion.

I'd go with "sportsbra".

I have officiated for over 14 years and I work a lot of ball, from youth to adult rec leagues,middle school and high school, and some college games as well. I'd bet I've worked more than 5,000 games and I've seen ONE game where a call directly cost a team a game. My partner called a double T in a men's league where 3 Techs is a forfeit. A player was baiting another player with 8 seconds left and his team was down 9 and the other team was about to shoot free throws. The double T was earned by the player, but it did allow a team to win a game that they should have lost.

But even in this case, if the player would not have lost his cool, the game would not have been lost, so was it really our fault? Or did the player decide the game?

I agree their the best at what they do, but that BLOWN call almost cost the Pistons the game. Lets say it did cost them the game, would you keep your same position. I know refs are human, and everyone makes mistakes, but when they make a mistake, anyone can point it out. Whats the difference between a ref making a mistake and a player/coach making a mistake? So because he is an offical, we can't critize him? It was obvious that it wasn't a double dribble (although from where he was he may not have seen it).
[/B][/QUOTE]Lah, me. we just get rid if the NCAA fanboys, and now the NBA fanboys show up.

The official missed the call, Rick. The official did NOT want to miss the call. There is no doubt that this official will feel bad and will be completely pissed off at himself when he finds out that he missed the call. The official WILL also get sh*t for missing that call from the league. Every official in the world WILL miss a call every now and then. The better you are, the fewer calls that you actually do miss- but you WILL miss a call sometime. We all do. If God put on a striped shirt and a whistle, he'd probably miss a call every now and then too. Get the idea?

I've seen a few male officials that should be wearing one!

"It's the bro!"

"Manzier!"

Nah, too ethnic.

Why would you doubt me, Chuck? See the link. See the jillstrap.

http://nonprofits.accesscomm.ca/lacrosse/boxequip.htm

Why would you doubt me, Chuck? See the link. See the jillstrap.

http://nonprofits.accesscomm.ca/lacrosse/boxequip.htm [/B][/QUOTE]

Yea, I can understand it with a lacrosse ball. Those things are wicked. I wouldn't think any one would need one for basketball.

Yea, I can understand it with a lacrosse ball. Those things are wicked. I wouldn't think any one would need one for basketball. [/B][/QUOTE]This all goes back to Cford's question to you above as to what the female equivalent of a jockstrap is. I thought that it was a "jillstrap", and when I googled it, bedamned if it wasn't. Think "thong" with a steel cup in front, Juulie. Come to think of it, if I had a daughter in high school, she'd be wearing one.

This all goes back to Cford's question to you above as to what the female equivalent of a jockstrap is. I thought that it was a "jillstrap", and when I googled it, bedamned if it wasn't. Think "thong" with a steel cup in front, Juulie. Come to think of it, if I had a daughter in high school, she'd be wearing one. [/B][/QUOTE]

You mean she'd be wearing it to class, right JR? My daughter's only four, but it's not to early to start thinking ahead.

Do they come with padlocks?

You feel the need to protect her from guys like .... ?

I wrote a post about this at May 25th, 2004 01:55 AM, some 10 hours before this thread was even started. It is currently the last post in this thread: http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...6&pagenumber=3

Here is a copy:
straight-lined

quote:
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Originally posted by rainmaker
Then he is straightlined and has no way to tell what actually happened.
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An excellent example of this happened to Bennett Salvatore in tonight's Indiana-Detroit game. He was the Trail as Chauncey Billups was bringing the ball up the floor against very little pressure. Salvatore fell a little too far behind, and when Billups put his second hand close to the ball in front of his stomach, Salvatore thought he touched the ball with both hands (the replays showed that he clearly did not) and called a double dribble violation.
So even with only one player and an NBA referee, it happens.

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Actually, your post was much clearer and informative than mine. Sorry I missed it until I after opened the new thread. I didn't see a seperate thread about the call and I thought it was the kind of situation everyone can learn from.