Hit's a Foul!

[Nu1]

"I'm not saying that more intentional fouls should not be called. I'm saying, and I can't say it any more clearly, if a player strikes another player or attempts to strike another player that player has committed a flagrant foul.

It does not matter if a common foul may have had more contact. You throw a punch and you are gone.

Like I said earlier you can have a common foul, an intentional foul, or a flagrant on that layup coach and the official has to judge which kind of foul occured. There is no such distinction on a punch. Punch = fight = ejection."

I'm agreeing with BlindZebra on this. I don't think there is any other reasonable choice if a player takes a swing.

I know this may be apples and oranges, or even bananas...but, what if...
1. A player curses after an official's call, what does he or she get? A "T"?
2. A player takes a swing at an official...hit or miss...what do they get?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tomegun
Juulie, can you clarify what you meant by "As she runs past A1, A1 reaches out and hits her. It was calculated, cold-blooded vengeance."

You are the only one that was there and you are the only one that can describe what was done.

Was the ball on the other end of the court away from the players?

Could what have happened be considered swing of the arms while running and hit the opponent?

Did she pull back and extend her arm to deliberately make a slapping/hitting contact with the opponent?

Could the player have taken a different path to avoid getting that close to the other player?

It seems like the different opinions could be resolved, reach common ground or at least come within shouting distance once it is clarified.
Jurassic/coach, do you think a flagrant and ejection should happen if something occurs that falls under the definition of fighting or is that conditional based on the outcome of the act and/or the climate of the game?
Blindzebra, do you think that a fighting act should be penalized no matter what?
I think (hope) we can all agree that if this isn't an act that would be considered fighting the player should remain in the game right?

I think I've been very clear where I stand, if a player attempts to strike another player they get tossed.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
When, during a live ball, A1 throws a punch that doesn't land, it is still fighting. However, since there is no contact, it can't be personal...this one is a T.

Correct. No contact = cannot be a personal foul. I forgot about this one, but MTD didn't. He pointed it out a few posts earlier. Good caveat, MTD!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Fine, then why ask the question in the first place? Why have this forum?

[/B]

So we can all give our OWN opinion. Mine happens to differ completely from your's,obviously. [/B][/QUOTE]

I asked the question, as I said at the beginning, to see if anyone said anything that changed my mind about what I did. My instinct said it wasn't flagrant, my book-learning mind said it was. I debated for a fraction of a second, and decided not to call it flagrant. I posted this to see where the discussion led, and whether or not I might be convinced of something different. It has been very helpful to examine all the different angles, and see the different points of view.

I notice two things in the last page or two. First, I wouldn't say A1 threw a punch. She had an open, flat hand, and it flapped at the wrist as she was reaching. She didn't exactly swing her arm, it was more of a reaching out. Perhaps those weak actions were why I decided against flagrant.

The other thing I notice is that the whole description of "anyone throws a punch, he's gone" doesn't apply to my situation, because these are girls. Yea, I know girls do fight, and I've tossed two for it over my five years. But the way girls fight is usually different from boys, and doesn't usually involve throwing punches. This girl reached out to sort of slap at someone, but she definitely didn't throw a punch. It was calculated, but I think I should not have said cold-blooded. It was vengful, but not vengeance.

Perhaps that's why blindzebra and tomegun and I are disagreeing so intensely. Perhaps I didn't communicate the picture very well. Perhaps they are thinking boys, I'm thingking girls.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by rainmaker

So we can all give our OWN opinion. Mine happens to differ completely from your's,obviously. [/B]

I asked the question, as I said at the beginning, to see if anyone said anything that changed my mind about what I did. My instinct said it wasn't flagrant, my book-learning mind said it was. I debated for a fraction of a second, and decided not to call it flagrant. I posted this to see where the discussion led, and whether or not I might be convinced of something different. It has been very helpful to examine all the different angles, and see the different points of view.

I notice two things in the last page or two. First, I wouldn't say A1 threw a punch. She had an open, flat hand, and it flapped at the wrist as she was reaching. She didn't exactly swing her arm, it was more of a reaching out. Perhaps those weak actions were why I decided against flagrant.

The other thing I notice is that the whole description of "anyone throws a punch, he's gone" doesn't apply to my situation, because these are girls. Yea, I know girls do fight, and I've tossed two for it over my five years. But the way girls fight is usually different from boys, and doesn't usually involve throwing punches. This girl reached out to sort of slap at someone, but she definitely didn't throw a punch. It was calculated, but I think I should not have said cold-blooded. It was vengful, but not vengeance.

Perhaps that's why blindzebra and tomegun and I are disagreeing so intensely. Perhaps I didn't communicate the picture very well. Perhaps they are thinking boys, I'm thingking girls. [/B][/QUOTE]

I went back and checked I never said he.

Actually the only fight I've ever had in a high school game
was in a girls game and these girls threw punches.

Back to your case, I read your first post as HIT, and therefore a punch, or at least a slap. Based upon your clearification I could see it as an attempted grab or push.
So an intentional would work if it was not a striking blow, but a grab or push.