From the bleachers

"Hey! She can't roll the ball. That's illegal," after a player who recovered the ball while sitting on the floor rolled the ball to a teammate.

"Call it I both ends!" after I had just called the 9th tem foul on her team. Oh, the opposing team had 10 team fouls.

"She traveled!" after Team A used a TO after a basket and A1 ran the baseline on the ensuing throw-in.

"She went OOB! She can come back in and be the first player to touch the ball. She can't do that!"

:( :( :( :(

Play: NCAA Women's Rules

A1 in bounds the ball to A2 who dribbles down the floor.
She passes the ball toward A3.
B1 leaps and intercepts the ball while in flight, before landing OOB.
Is the shot clock reset before A inbounds the ball?
Rule reference please.

I love this one.

Towards the end of my season last year I was working a ncaa game when a player told me I gotta cal it both ways. I pointed to the scoreboard which had fouls at 9 each and asked him how it could be more both ways. He smiled and hugged me. :)

Quote:

Play: NCAA Women's Rules A1 in bounds the ball to A2 who dribbles down the floor. She passes the ball toward A3. B1 leaps and intercepts the ball while in flight, before landing OOB. Is the shot clock reset before A inbounds the ball? Rule reference please.

NCAA 2-13-6a

Stop the timing device and reset it when team control is re-established after the team loses possession of the ball.

So in your case as soon as B established team control the shot clock is reset to 30 for women or 35 for men.

Isn't out of bounds a violation?

Yeah but the change in possesion happened first.

For run of the mill deflected OOB see 2-13-7a.

We're on the same page, you just got there first... ;)

Jim, team A lost posession when team B intercepted ball and re-established team contol. B then went OOB. A gets the ball but clock is reset at point where B intercepted (re-established team control).

__________________________________________________ _______
"To know the road ahead, ask those coming back."--Chinese proverb

I concede.

You're conceded.

The two NCAA officials I was working with stated that since B1 didn't land inbounds, she never had possession. :(

I responded, "Would you have granted a TO if she had signalled before she landed?"

"Yes."

"That's right, because she had team control and player control. So why is it different when she doesn't request TO?"

"Because she landed OOB."

:(

I concede. [/B][/QUOTE]You're conceded. [/B][/QUOTE]

"I used to be conceited, but now I am perfect."

Get in.
Get done.
Get out.

Normally, I do not advocate violence, but you have my permission, this one time to slap them both silly upside their heads.

MTD, Sr.

Well, I'll see one of 'em tomorrow. http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/stick.gif

It probably happened too fast for it to matter, but wouldn't the shot clock actually be reset twice on this play. First reset is when B intercepts the ball, so the shot clock is now counting down for team B's possession. Then a second reset when the player lands OOB. This reset gives team A a fresh shot clock for their ensuing possession.
You wouldn't want to be giving the ball to team A with one second gone from the shot clock after the OOB violation, right?

But as someone cited above, doesn't an OOB still call for a re-set?

No. If B had simply deflected the ball OOB, the shot clock would not have been reset.

So, Tony, in NCAA, is oob a violation? is it a violation generally, but not for the purposes of the shot clock?

NCAA 2-13-7a
Stop the timing device and continue time without a reset when play begins under the following circumstances:
a. The ball is deflected out of bounds by a defensive player.

Jewel,
Like Tony mentioned previously, team control changed.
<LI>A did have team control before the interception. [A shot clock : 24.]
<LI>B had the ball, not Team A (change of control), when the violation occurred.[B shot clock: 29.2]
<LI>A throws the ball in on B violation; change of control [A shot clock: 30]

I know you know. :)
mick

Saw my two partners today. One told me I was right before I could even bring it up. I gave the other the rule reference.

Today, we had a 5 second count on a held ball throw-in. i told the timer to switch the arow. Wroking with the smae partner who conceded I was right about the shot clock play. He questioned me as to whether it should be switched or not. I stood my ground.

We switched the arrow. :)

It's amazing that some very good officials have to discuss these things out, when those of us who frequent discussion boards...well, it's second nature to us. ;)

I love it when things happen as they should. :)

Actually, mick, I don't know. I've always ignored any discussion of NCAA rules, because I just didn't need the extra data taking up synapses in my brain. But the theory is that someday, I may get a few college games (maybe even this fall????) and I'll need to know this stuff. So I'm starting to pay attention and ask questions. Especially shot-clock stuff can't hurt, since it isn't going to get confused with anything else.

Wassamatta?

You don't trust me?

sheesh... :rolleyes:

You're giving me way too much credit. I didn't understand the discussion well enough to trust or distrust anyone. I intended to change the question a little and head off on a tangent. I was trying to understand the oob part of the play, if it wasn't complicated by the change of possession. Tony understood my question, and gave me the quote along with the cite. Helpful since I don't have a book.

Truth to tell, my head has been spinning the last few weeks as I try to start picking up CCA 3-person mechanics. It is just so overwhelming! And I had intended to ignore rule differences between HS and college for a while longer, but this discussion seemed so germane, and as I said above, it wouldn't complicate any HS rule thoughts, since we don't use a shot clock here in Oregon, so I thought I'd ask a few quetsions.

Juulie
Perhaps what you are missing is that OOB by A would automatically result in shot clock reset, even though there has not yet been a change in team control. Violations by A result in B getting ball and a new clock, with new clock coming right away.

Probably doesn't matter much with NCAA now giving TC on a throw-in, but without that rule, it would be a significant provision.

Coach, I'm not getting why you say TC on the throw-in makes a difference here.

As far as I can tell it doesn't.

Any violation causes a shot clock reset except when the defense deflects the ball OOB.

95% of violations are turn-overs, anyway, right? The only ones that would be questions would be if the defense tipped it out, or if the defense kicked the ball, right?

Jewel,
On a defensive kick, there is an exception.
Because it is "illegal" to kick the ball out-of-bounds, the shot clock <U>is reset</U>.
If the ball is "legally" deflected out-of-bounds, the clock is not rest.
mick

Edit:
Actually, the kicked ball doesn't have to go out-of-bounds for a reset.

[Edited by mick on May 17th, 2004 at 10:13 AM]

I did get that. My point was, why point out that the shot clock is re-set on a violation? Of course it is, since the ball is turned over. The kick and the deflection oob are the only defensive violations. The kick resets the shot clock, the tip doesn't.

I don't know if I agree with your number but I agree with the concept. In practice you need to remember to reset the shot clock on a kick ball (ncaa kick not the same as a NF kick btw), or any turnover and of course when the ball hits the rim on a shot. Generally fouls cause a reset but it gets messy with double fouls & technical fouls. No reset on a held ball if the offense has the arrow.

You can download the ncaa book from the web.

The CCA manual has many (24 or 28?) shot clock scenarios with proper ruling.

I don't have my books here (and I'm too lazy to look them up on line), but suppose that provision wasn't there ...

Now the rule reads (something like) "The shot clock shall be reset when the other team gets control."

Before the last couple of years, when did the Team B get *control* after an offensive (Team A) violation? After the throw-in (in a general sense). What if Team A intercepted the throw-in? Should the shot-clock be reset? Not without the "reset upon a violation" wording.

Yes, it could be clearer. But, I think that's why it's there.

Maybe to define when the clock is reset ie on the violation and not the subsequent throw in?

:shrug:

I wouldn't get too bogged down in this for now. Just understand how the clock is to be handled.

Better look again, scooter. :)

Bob -- Your point makes sense to me. Thanks.

Thanks for this discussion. I can see I've got some studying ahead of me.

I'm still on pages 16-20. Where the heck to stand when, and switching. Ugh! Reporting is different! Rotation! Wide eyes! I know it's all very good for me, but my head is spinning. I'll work on shot clock in August, with March Madness tapes.

[Edited by rainmaker on May 17th, 2004 at 11:42 AM]

Got me...

...and that's MR Scooter to you! :)

Explain please for us peons! No, I get the part about Mr. Scooter. I want to know more about the kick.

Of course. :rolleyes: Silly me...

Purely from a statistician's standpoint, I wouldn't call the situation a change of possession. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't give the defensive player a steal and a turnover because it doesn't seem like "control" applies. Nor would I give the offensive player a turnover.

You do not think the defender was "holding, or dribbling"? ;)
mick

Does that mean that if a defensive player steals the ball, and then subsequently double-dribbles, travels,etc., you also wouldn't credit that defensive player with a steal and a turnover either? You've got exactly the same thing in both situations-i.e. A steal, followed by player and team control(by rule), followed by a violation.

The rules definition of player control is "holding or dribbling the ball". That fits all the situations above.

theboys,

I agree with the others, I don't see how you can avoid calling it a steal/turnover. It's not as if the play is unaffected, since A gets a new shotclock. B1 worked to get the steal, give it to her. Now, she neglects to pass it before landing OOB, give her the turnover.
Would you give it to her if her first foot landed in bounds and her second foot landed OOB? What about both feet in and then dribbles OOB? It seems to me the logical and reasonable definition should be whether she establishes player control. She did.

This is why there's no consistency in statistics at lower levels of play.

Under statistical rules, this is a turnover for A, and a steal and turnover for B. B1 had player control of the ball. It can't be ignored.

I saw a play along similar lines. High school rules, the opening tip is going out of bounds before either team can gain control. Player for Team A grabs the ball while airborne before he lands OOB he saves it to Player B. In this case the AP arrow was set to Team B. I believe that would be correct.

Looks right to me, Rick. Same concept.

Sounds like your two partners ignored it quite well... just goes to show that it ain't always the best or brightest who get to "move up" if you know what I mean...