Over the back ???

TKATNL · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 03:18pm

Hello everyone after a couple days as a guest I have joined the forum. What a great web site, I have learned alot in the past day or so. I am a new basketball ref. I'm doing 5,6,7,8 grade "classic" ball, it is taken very seriously. My question is on an over the back foul on a rebound. If player A1 is in position to rebound and B1 jumps up and gets the rebound over the top without contact should there be a call ? Or should an over the back call be made only when there is contact. B1 was a taller player than A1, the coach kept asking for over the back. Any clarification would be great.

Mark Padgett · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 03:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TKATNL
Hello everyone after a couple days as a guest I have joined the forum. What a great web site, I have learned alot in the past day or so. I am a new basketball ref. I'm doing 5,6,7,8 grade "classic" ball, it is taken very seriously. My question is on an over the back foul on a rebound. If player A1 is in position to rebound and B1 jumps up and gets the rebound over the top without contact should there be a call ? Or should an over the back call be made only when there is contact. B1 was a taller player than A1, the coach kept asking for over the back. Any clarification would be great.

As everyone on this board would tell you - THERE IS NO SUCH FOUL AS "OVER THE BACK"!!!!!!!

If A1 has good position and B1 is standing behind him and then B1 reaches over A1 to get a rebound, there is no foul. To have a foul, there must be enough contact by B1 to displace A1 and the amount of contact must be at least equal to the amount of contact you are calling as a foul everywhere else in that game.

If there is a foul in that situation, it's a push.

And - while we're on the subject - THERE IS NO SUCH FOUL AS A "REACH", EITHER!!!!!!!

rpwall · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 03:37pm

Mark says it very well. There has to be contact for a foul to be called.

Even if there is contact, you might want to use some judgement in calling a foul ... if B1 contacts A1 from behind during a rebound, but A1 still gets the rebound (and A1 doesn't travel or get pushed OOB), frequently you can get away with a "no call".

co2ice · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 05:14pm

AMEN to Marks statement. What really gets me is when two players A1 and B1 both have position for a rebound, but A1 is a little farther under the basket and when he goes up for the rebound he actually jumps backward into B1 all the while team A's bench goes nuts for an "over-the-back" call. As has been stated NO TOUCH-NO FOUL!

mick · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 05:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by co2ice
AMEN to Marks statement. What really gets me is when two players A1 and B1 both have position for a rebound, but A1 is a little farther under the basket and when he goes up for the rebound he actually jumps backward into B1 all the while team A's bench goes nuts for an "over-the-back" call. As has been stated NO TOUCH-NO FOUL!

co,
When it is blatant, I have called that foul on A1.
It isn't the most popular call of the night.

mick

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 06:22pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

co,
When it is blatant, I have called that foul on A1.
It isn't the most popular call of the night.
mick

And that is the correct call Mr. Chambers.

TKATNL,

First of all, THERE IS NO SUCH FOUL AS "OVER THE BACK"!!!!!!! That's coachspeak and we don't use it. It's not in the rule book and it doesn't exist.

Don't penalize a player just because he's taller than his opponent. As others have said, if there's no contact, there's no foul. 4-19-1 says, "A personal foul is a player foul which involves illegal contact with an opponent...". There has to be contact.

Now, having said that, even if there is contact, that doesn't mean there's a foul Remember, the contact has to be illegal contact. If two players jump with in their vertical plane, you can have lots and lots of contact and still not have a foul. Go to a few varsity games and watch the contact on rebounds. This will help give you a better perspective.

And remember, THERE IS NO SUCH FOUL AS "OVER THE BACK"!!!!!!!

Tony

JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 08:17pm

Rule of verticality. It is that simple. You can only go straight up, not backwards or forwards into someone elses space (Sideways too).

Quote:

Originally posted by mick

Quote:

Originally posted by co2ice
AMEN to Marks statement. What really gets me is when two players A1 and B1 both have position for a rebound, but A1 is a little farther under the basket and when he goes up for the rebound he actually jumps backward into B1 all the while team A's bench goes nuts for an "over-the-back" call. As has been stated NO TOUCH-NO FOUL!

co,
When it is blatant, I have called that foul on A1.
It isn't the most popular call of the night.
mick

TKATNL · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 08:40pm

First of all, thanks to all the pro's for your valued input on my last thread, it is now very clear and with time I will polish my judgement on the call. My next question in which Matt touched base on in his post. If I'm the lead offical on the baseline and I call a foul in where there will be two shoots, I report to the score table and return to the baseline or does the trail offical take that place. On the other hand if I'm the trail offical and the lead calls a foul do I automatically take the baseline lead and administer the free throws or do I stay put and he will resume that position ? I have done 12 games now and they are actually going well, but each offical seems to do it a little diffrently from game to game. What is the correct mechanics ???? Thanks again gentlemen !!!!

co2ice · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 09:17pm

TKAT: I think its best to rotate after each foul has been reported to the bench, except in situations where it causes one official to run nearly the length of the court to accomplish, (long switches)as they are refered to in our association are out. Lead always administers the free-throws.

mick · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 03, 2001, 10:29pm

Quote:

Originally posted by TKATNL
First of all, thanks to all the pro's for your valued input on my last thread, it is now very clear and with time I will polish my judgement on the call. My next question in which Matt touched base on in his post. If I'm the lead offical on the baseline and I call a foul in where there will be two shoots, I report to the score table and return to the baseline or does the trail offical take that place. On the other hand if I'm the trail offical and the lead calls a foul do I automatically take the baseline lead and administer the free throws or do I stay put and he will resume that position ? I have done 12 games now and they are actually going well, but each offical seems to do it a little diffrently from game to game. What is the correct mechanics ???? Thanks again gentlemen !!!!

TK,
The suggested mechanic is for the non-calling offical to freeze his vision on the court while the foul is being reported, and when the calling offical turns to observe the court, the non-calling offical initiates the switch. So, if the Lead is non-calling, he will go to Trail. If the Trail is non-calling he goes to Lead.
And, (Very Important), as a newer offical, you may not realize, that you don't chase the ball. Keep you attention on the players, and you know what? The ball will come to you.
mick

rainmaker · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 04, 2001, 01:38am

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
As everyone on this board would tell you - THERE IS NO SUCH FOUL AS "OVER THE BACK"!!!!!!!

And - while we're on the subject - THERE IS NO SUCH FOUL AS A "REACH", EITHER!!!!!!!

TK--

As you will soon realize, Mark Padgett is one of our most distinguished post-ers here, with a great deal of experience, wisdom and knowledge and a wicked sense of humor! But in only your first two days, you have already managed to PUSH HIS BUTTONS!!!!!!!!! Way cool!! Don't take it personally, he's only responding to the subject, not to you.

And of course he is absolutely right!

juulie

bob jenkins · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jan 04, 2001, 08:46am

Quote:

Originally posted by mick
So, if the Lead is non-calling, he will go to Trail. If the Trail is non-calling he goes to Lead.

One thing that confuses some new officials is that they think that "Switch" always means from Lead to Trail. This works when the foul is on the defense, but wen the foul is on the offense, the old Lead will become the new Lead (and old T the new T).

"Switch" really means to switch from being the "north" official to the "south" official (I hope that makes sense).

Also, TK -- you may be running into officials who don't do things by-the-book. This is especially true at lower level and rec games (not always, and perhaps never in certain association). Some officials have more of a "switch when it makes sense" mentality. So, if the T calls a foul on the defense in the offense's frontcourt, T just turns to the table, signals the foul, then turns back in position. If the L calls the foul, the officials switch, since L has to come out to signal the foul.

If you're a new official working with (more) experienced officials in lower level games, tell them in the pre-game that you'd like to work the official mechanics so you can practice. I'd hope they'd be receptive.