Player in twilight zone

[Mark Padgett]

This past weekend, I did a 7th grade rec tournament at a facility that has a 20 point "mercy" rule. If a team leads by 20 or more in the second half, they cannot guard in the backcourt. This is not unusual at all for rec tournaments.

A1 got a rebound in his backcourt and turned up court. We were well into the second half and B led by over 30 and had been clearing into the frontcourt very well all half. However, in this instance, B1 started to guard him. I yelled at B1 "no backcourt, Blue". He stopped guarding and ran into the frontcourt. A1 requested and was granted a timeout (don't ask me why - I think they just wanted to sub). On the inbound still in the backcourt, B1 got into position to guard the inbounder. I took the ball and again, I yelled at B1. He moved back. Before I gave the ball back to the inbounder, Coach B requested and was granted a timeout. I could hear him talking to B1 about staying out of the backcourt. B1 was nodding his head. We come out of the timeout and - yep, you guessed it - B1 again went to guard the inbounder in the backcourt!

Again, I took the ball back and yelled at the Coach to either move him back or it was a T. The coach responded by removing him from the game.

Here's the kicker - it was his son!

[Richard Ogg]

Mark, that's not a "kicker", it is the explanation. Everyone knows that kids don't listen to their parents! The boy never heard the coach, but did demonstrate his automatic head-nodder.

[ilya]

>If a team leads by 20 or more in the second half, they cannot guard in the backcourt. This is not unusual at all for rec tournaments.

That happens in our game too, but sometimes they also tell you "no breakaways!" if you're up by a bunch.


I have my coach's son on my team, and he often does about the same thing, except he fouls like that. His dad always tells him, don't try to steal the ball, you'll just foul him. Guess what, he goes for a steal every time, and yes, pick up a personal!

[JRutledge]

liked that rule. So what does the league do to enforce this situation? And if you gave a T, who would you call it on?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by JRutledge
liked that rule. So what does the league do to enforce this situation? And if you gave a T, who would you call it on?

They are team technicals. Also - this is the same facility that has the house rule that a T is 2 shots, the ball and an automatic 2 points. 5 technicals in this situation and a team can get right back in the ballgame

[williebfree]

Look at the situation that was originally posted and the line of responses to it...

Then think about how it "should be". Junior high/Middle School is a fundamental, sportmanship, and skills-building level (at least it should be) and we have teams that have to be "threatened with" and have enforced "T"s..... Pardon me, but what the hell is wrong with the coaches and the overall philosophy of the league.

I am making this commentary knowing full well it is occuring in my backyard as well.

I guess my "bottom line" question is.... What can we (as officials, and in most cases, parents) do about it?

Just airing my disgust with the deterioration of the wholesomeness of our society.

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by williebfree
Look at the situation that was originally posted and the line of responses to it...

Then think about how it "should be". Junior high/Middle School is a fundamental, sportmanship, and skills-building level (at least it should be) and we have teams that have to be "threatened with" and have enforced "T"s..... Pardon me, but what the hell is wrong with the coaches and the overall philosophy of the league.

I am not sure why you mention coaches and the league as the problem in the original posting. The coach is telling the player to get back.

Coach B requested and was granted a timeout. I could hear him talking to B1 about staying out of the backcourt.

The tourtnament has the T rule in place to keep things right.

This past weekend, I did a 7th grade rec tournament at a facility that has a 20 point "mercy" rule.

In this specific case, it is a young player here who is at fault. I am not ready to believe that this indicates the overall degeneration of society at large, although many other things I have seen in youth sports have led me to wonder. However, this case tells me that some people are getting it right.

I coach two select teams of very competitive athletes. My top athletes frequently go into turbo mode, where brainwave activity appears to cease and athletic activity goes into overdrive. Not only have they behaved like B in the example, but they also throw the ball away against no pressure and do a number of things that I devote considerable practice time to trying to eliminate. When they get overly aggressive, they are not being bad sports, they just have very little sense of perspective on the court and are trying to play hard. I have to try to manage that based on game situations, and I do my best as do many other coaches. Others behave quite badly, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. We aren't always to blame when things go wrong on the court.

[williebfree]

HAWKS COACH (AND WHOEVER ELSE WANTS TO RESPOND)

I fully realize the innocent situations, especially at the lower levels, that you delineated and accept them as typical. After re-reading the original posting, I agree that all that occurred in that scenario was done appropriately and in good sportmanship.

HOWEVER, I do stand by my posting.... (Maybe It did not clearly identify what I feel is a larger problem) my comments where intended to address the lack of sportsmanship I see on a frequent basis. Focus moreso on this part of that posting: "I guess my "bottom line" question is.... What can we (as officials, and in most cases, as parents) do about it?"

Example: Last Friday night I did a Freshman game. "Gold" had a far superior, talented team and quickly jumped out to a sizeable lead (22-3 end of 1st qtr). Gold's coach continued a full court or 3/4 court press through the 1st half; (53-8 at the half).

Second half was not much different. The only exception was "Gold" did not press, but they ran a fast break nearly every opportunity. Gold's players attitudes were very pompous and pushing the edge of unsportmanlike conduct. It was clearly evident that they were feeding off the "leadership" of their coach.

At the end of the game in the officials' dressing room, my partner, an L-4 Official, commented about "Letting him ("Gold" Coach) get an earful about sportsmanship". Even though I agreed that "Gold's" coach could have taken many pre-emptive efforts to "throttle" his team (such as set plays) without "breaking their competitive edge", I did not feel it was my position to go to him immediately after the game (in uniform) and berate his conduct.

Open to feedback!!!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
I am not sure why you mention coaches and the league as the problem in the original posting. The coach is telling the player to get back.

I agree that coaches aren't always to blame, but often they are, as I'm sure you would agree.

I did games last summer in a rec league with this rule. This was supposed to be girls' frshmen, but most of the teams were actually 7th and 8th graders playing up to gain experience, which is fine. But there was this one team of true freshmen, which is fine, at least two of which had played varsity in the winter on a team in the top eight in the state! We're talking mis-match here.

I seemed to have them every weekend, and I got very tired of telling them game after game, "NO backcourt, NO backcourt." Finally, I whistled (they were double teaming the inbounder under their own basket -- ahead by about 35 or so). I walked over to the coach and said, I want to be real clear here this is your last warning. The next back court defense of any kind will be a technical." He said, "Oh well you know these girls just have an aggerssive instinct and they just do it automatically..." so I said, "So what you're telling me is that you have no control over your team?" and walked away. And it worked! No more backcourt defense.

The coach really was the problem all the way along, and needed to know that I knew where to apply the screws. I guess that falls into the snappy comebacks department, which I don't usually endorse, but it did the job. Incidentally, I did their last game in that league which turned out to be their only loss (by two points), The coach actually came up after that game and shook my hand. There's just no accounting....

[Hawks Coach]

My post only referred to the situation as described in the original posting. I am fully aware of the problems in youth sports, and that coaches are to blame for many these problems. These problems bother me probably as much as many of you. I know many coaches that agree with my viewpoints, and many others who represent the worst in sportsmanship, player development, etc. My request was merely that one look at the situation rather than giving a general criticism of coaches in a situation that did not warrant it. We aren't all bad all the time.

Since williebfree asked what officials and parents could do, I would also point out that parents are usually the worst problem. They have less undersanding of what is going on than coaches and are less aware of sportsmanship concerns,player development issues, perspective based on age level and level of competition, etc. Some of my biggest problems in getting players to do what I think they should do is getting past what their parents tell them to do when they provide their individual coaching before, during and after games.

[Mark Padgett]

so I said, "So what you're telling me is that you have no control over your team?" and walked away. I guess that falls into the snappy comebacks department, which I don't usually endorse, but it did the job.
[/B]

During a rec game last fall, a team was pressing in the second half with a 40 point lead in a game in which there was no rule against it. I was working with Dave and, during a timeout, politely (really!) he said to the coach, "Coach, do you really have to press?"

The coach replied, "Don't try to coach my team."

Dave's comeback: "Well, somebody should."

[Richard Ogg]

When a team that is well ahead is still pressing, it is amazing how many fouls they can commit.

[mick]

Originally posted by Richard Ogg
When a team that is well ahead is still pressing, it is amazing how many fouls they can commit.

Richard,
That never seems to happen in my game, unless there are a bunch of bench warmers playing.
Mostly U.P. here, the coaches will make the team pass the ball 7-10 times before setting up a kid that hadn't scored to that point.
mick

[Brian Watson]

Mick,

I think he was kidding.

[mick]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
Mick,

I think he was kidding.

Brian,
I was thinking of the "young" readers.
Sorry, it was just a short trip to Seriousville.
Lost my head.

mick