This past weekend, I did a 7th grade rec tournament at a facility that has a 20 point "mercy" rule. If a team leads by 20 or more in the second half, they cannot guard in the backcourt. This is not unusual at all for rec tournaments.

A1 got a rebound in his backcourt and turned up court. We were well into the second half and B led by over 30 and had been clearing into the frontcourt very well all half. However, in this instance, B1 started to guard him. I yelled at B1 "no backcourt, Blue". He stopped guarding and ran into the frontcourt. A1 requested and was granted a timeout (don't ask me why - I think they just wanted to sub). On the inbound still in the backcourt, B1 got into position to guard the inbounder. I took the ball and again, I yelled at B1. He moved back. Before I gave the ball back to the inbounder, Coach B requested and was granted a timeout. I could hear him talking to B1 about staying out of the backcourt. B1 was nodding his head. We come out of the timeout and - yep, you guessed it - B1 again went to guard the inbounder in the backcourt!

Again, I took the ball back and yelled at the Coach to either move him back or it was a T. The coach responded by removing him from the game.

Here's the kicker - it was his son!

Obvious!!
 

Mark, that's not a "kicker", it is the explanation. Everyone knows that kids don't listen to their parents! The boy never heard the coach, but did demonstrate his automatic head-nodder.

>If a team leads by 20 or more in the second half, they cannot guard in the backcourt. This is not unusual at all for rec tournaments.

That happens in our game too, but sometimes they also tell you "no breakaways!" if you're up by a bunch.


I have my coach's son on my team, and he often does about the same thing, except he fouls like that. His dad always tells him, don't try to steal the ball, you'll just foul him. Guess what, he goes for a steal every time, and yes, pick up a personal! :)

I really have never......
 

liked that rule. So what does the league do to enforce this situation? And if you gave a T, who would you call it on?

Re: I really have never......
 

They are team technicals. Also - this is the same facility that has the house rule that a T is 2 shots, the ball and an automatic 2 points. 5 technicals in this situation and a team can get right back in the ballgame ;)

Stop and think about this.....
 

Look at the situation that was originally posted and the line of responses to it...

Then think about how it "should be". Junior high/Middle School is a fundamental, sportmanship, and skills-building level (at least it should be) and we have teams that have to be "threatened with" and have enforced "T"s..... Pardon me, but what the hell is wrong with the coaches and the overall philosophy of the league.

I am making this commentary knowing full well it is occuring in my backyard as well.

I guess my "bottom line" question is.... What can we (as officials, and in most cases, parents) do about it?

Just airing my disgust with the deterioration of the wholesomeness of our society.

Re: Stop and think about this.....
 

I am not sure why you mention coaches and the league as the problem in the original posting. The coach is telling the player to get back.

Coach B requested and was granted a timeout. I could hear him talking to B1 about staying out of the backcourt.

The tourtnament has the T rule in place to keep things right.

This past weekend, I did a 7th grade rec tournament at a facility that has a 20 point "mercy" rule.

In this specific case, it is a young player here who is at fault. I am not ready to believe that this indicates the overall degeneration of society at large, although many other things I have seen in youth sports have led me to wonder. However, this case tells me that some people are getting it right.

I coach two select teams of very competitive athletes. My top athletes frequently go into turbo mode, where brainwave activity appears to cease and athletic activity goes into overdrive. Not only have they behaved like B in the example, but they also throw the ball away against no pressure and do a number of things that I devote considerable practice time to trying to eliminate. When they get overly aggressive, they are not being bad sports, they just have very little sense of perspective on the court and are trying to play hard. I have to try to manage that based on game situations, and I do my best as do many other coaches. Others behave quite badly, but I think you are barking up the wrong tree here. We aren't always to blame when things go wrong on the court.

Looking at a larger picture than just one incident...
 

HAWKS COACH (AND WHOEVER ELSE WANTS TO RESPOND)

I fully realize the innocent situations, especially at the lower levels, that you delineated and accept them as typical. After re-reading the original posting, I agree that all that occurred in that scenario was done appropriately and in good sportmanship.

HOWEVER, I do stand by my posting.... (Maybe It did not clearly identify what I feel is a larger problem) my comments where intended to address the lack of sportsmanship I see on a frequent basis. Focus moreso on this part of that posting: "I guess my "bottom line" question is.... What can we (as officials, and in most cases, as parents) do about it?"

Example: Last Friday night I did a Freshman game. "Gold" had a far superior, talented team and quickly jumped out to a sizeable lead (22-3 end of 1st qtr). Gold's coach continued a full court or 3/4 court press through the 1st half; (53-8 at the half).

Second half was not much different. The only exception was "Gold" did not press, but they ran a fast break nearly every opportunity. Gold's players attitudes were very pompous and pushing the edge of unsportmanlike conduct. It was clearly evident that they were feeding off the "leadership" of their coach.

At the end of the game in the officials' dressing room, my partner, an L-4 Official, commented about "Letting him ("Gold" Coach) get an earful about sportsmanship". Even though I agreed that "Gold's" coach could have taken many pre-emptive efforts to "throttle" his team (such as set plays) without "breaking their competitive edge", I did not feel it was my position to go to him immediately after the game (in uniform) and berate his conduct.

Open to feedback!!!

Re: Re: Stop and think about this.....
 

I agree that coaches aren't always to blame, but often they are, as I'm sure you would agree.

I did games last summer in a rec league with this rule. This was supposed to be girls' frshmen, but most of the teams were actually 7th and 8th graders playing up to gain experience, which is fine. But there was this one team of true freshmen, which is fine, at least two of which had played varsity in the winter on a team in the top eight in the state! We're talking mis-match here.

I seemed to have them every weekend, and I got very tired of telling them game after game, "NO backcourt, NO backcourt." Finally, I whistled (they were double teaming the inbounder under their own basket -- ahead by about 35 or so). I walked over to the coach and said, I want to be real clear here this is your last warning. The next back court defense of any kind will be a technical." He said, "Oh well you know these girls just have an aggerssive instinct and they just do it automatically..." so I said, "So what you're telling me is that you have no control over your team?" and walked away. And it worked! No more backcourt defense.

The coach really was the problem all the way along, and needed to know that I knew where to apply the screws. I guess that falls into the snappy comebacks department, which I don't usually endorse, but it did the job. Incidentally, I did their last game in that league which turned out to be their only loss (by two points), The coach actually came up after that game and shook my hand. There's just no accounting....

My post only referred to the situation as described in the original posting. I am fully aware of the problems in youth sports, and that coaches are to blame for many these problems. These problems bother me probably as much as many of you. I know many coaches that agree with my viewpoints, and many others who represent the worst in sportsmanship, player development, etc. My request was merely that one look at the situation rather than giving a general criticism of coaches in a situation that did not warrant it. We aren't all bad all the time.

Since williebfree asked what officials and parents could do, I would also point out that parents are usually the worst problem. They have less undersanding of what is going on than coaches and are less aware of sportsmanship concerns,player development issues, perspective based on age level and level of competition, etc. Some of my biggest problems in getting players to do what I think they should do is getting past what their parents tell them to do when they provide their individual coaching before, during and after games.

Here's a "Dave" for you
 

During a rec game last fall, a team was pressing in the second half with a 40 point lead in a game in which there was no rule against it. I was working with Dave and, during a timeout, politely (really!) he said to the coach, "Coach, do you really have to press?"

The coach replied, "Don't try to coach my team."

Dave's comeback: "Well, somebody should."

When a team that is well ahead is still pressing, it is amazing how many fouls they can commit.

Richard,
That never seems to happen in my game, unless there are a bunch of bench warmers playing.
Mostly U.P. here, the coaches will make the team pass the ball 7-10 times before setting up a kid that hadn't scored to that point.
mick

Mick,

I think he was kidding.

you and I know that
 

Brian,
I was thinking of the "young" readers.
Sorry, it was just a short trip to Seriousville.
Lost my head. ;)

mick

Superior vs. Inferior
 

Mark,
Thanks for your orginal post. All of the comments helped me in would will be a similar situation for next week. I will be reffing a small Christian school vs a potential state chanmpion team. Already word has come to me that the better team intends to set a state scoring record and a state record for holding an opponent to fews number of points scored. I have wrestled with this delima all week; how do I want my crew to handle these games. I realize we officials have no business coaching teams while reffing and we should not dictate how the the game is played or the score. That being said, I am anticipating a 100-150 point spread in the SV girls game and the boys game won't be much different. I really would like to know how you guys would handle a game like this? Just let it happen? Tighten up the foul line particularlly in backcourt? I am really dreading these games on Jan. 9. Thanks.
Jerry

Re: Superior vs. Inferior
 

Despite what you may feel emotionally, the most professional thing you can do is to just officiate the game straight as an arrow both ways.

This way, all the focus will be on that coach for his total lack of sportsmanship, and no one will say a word about the officiating trying to even out this or that.

HAWKS COACH
 

I AGREE WITH YOU, I MISREAD THE ORIGINAL POSTING IN THIS THREAD...
I do not feel I was not trying to generalize (lump all coaches into an evil category)... Sorry if it read that way.

I do not doubt you are doing the right thing... I am still open to SUGGESTIONS of getting parents "on board"...

FYI: I have coached a variety of sports teams at the lower levels (Kindergarten thru 7th Grade). I have found a brief "newsletter", at the start of the season, communicating my goals, objectives, and stressing sportsmanship has worked well.

Sorry if I overreacted a bit, I think we would find ourselves in agreement on most issues in this vein.

This has been my worst year parents wise, but I also do a letter. I have regular parent's meetings with my girls AAU team, because of the problems I have experienced. I explain my approach to the game, that I will put player development over wins (and show that this is in the interest of those who are looking for college scholarships), my rules of the road (no coaching during games, no ref baiting, etc.) goals for the season, and go from there. I try to talk to parents one-on-one on a regular basis.

I still catch hell from the misguided few who know nothing about basketball, the quality of their players or the competition, and all that.

Blowout coming
 

Thanks Mark. I had pretty well decided to do just what you suggested before I read your post. It will be horrible but my crew will work the game fairly and will not try to even out the field, that will be done by the players. I hope the sportsmanship emphasis will win out and the better team will back off. Last time I had this team in a blowout, the coach would only allow his girls to shoot 3's the 4th quarter. If they went inside the arc and scored he bencehed the player for awhile. Later in the year it paid off because his team stayed in a tight game because of their 3's and went to the the state tournament.

Jerry

A bit more serious on those fouls....
 

My previous joke was intended to speak a bit on how the game is called. Now let me be very specific.

We often talk about refereeing the level of play. That is, if the players can play through a little, let them play through it. If they can't ("disadvantage"), then make the call. So, JH will find some fouls called for acts that would be passed on in a varsity game. Similarly, in a good HS game I will not tollerate traveling (e.g., the little shuffle of feet). At the JH level I mostly ignore that (or the minor infractions of it) or the game will never end.

Now to your mis-match. Consider the skill level, and call it accordingly. Remember that you cannot deviate too much between the two teams. If the state champs can play through a little contact, then pass on those ticky-tacky fouls. If the small Christian school cannot, then they should be called. This doesn't mean that you will not call fouls on the lower-sklled team, but you might be tighter one way than the other. Never pass on anything blatant or rough.

As for the travels, the low-skilled team probably needs some latitude or they will become frustrated with never getting down the court. The high-skilled team has earned your closer attention to those shuffles to help them tune their game for the bigger matches to come.

As for the press, if the team that is way ahead gets even close to an opponent in the backcourt, I'm sure there must have been a foul there. Call every one, and soon the small school will at least be able to cross the division line.

Good luck, and tell us how it went. (I had a girls JV game last night that was 35-5 at the half, 53-20 at the end. They aren't much fun.)

I absolutely agree with this. The really bad attitude coaches wouldn't last a week if the parents would pull their kids. But too many of them have stars in their eyes and rocks in their heads. Your description is so charitable, but I have become quite cynical about a lot of this. Even so, it's not all of them. I did have a dad apologize once. And I heard a mom after one game that almost made me break my rule about not volunteering to talk to aprents: Her daughter's team had lost by about 35 or so, but she said, (with unfeigned enthusiasm) "Great game, honey!! That cross-over dribble looks fabulous!" The girl was grinning sheepishly, but she was feelin' no pain. No, she won't end up at UConn or in the WNBA, but neither will the kid of the #$%&*%* who says, "Only 10 points tonight son? Didn't get enough sleep last night?" (Okay there are some gender issues in that last sentence, but you get my idea...)

WOW! Way emotional! Just finished a game with a very awful parent on the score table. Very awful. Very awful. Feelin' anti-parent at the moment...

[Edited by rainmaker on Jan 6th, 2001 at 02:08 AM]

Dittos to Rainmaker
 

I greatly enjoy your posts in here...

Iritating Parents, for better or worse, are a part of the game... It seems their courtside ettiquitte improves as does the ability/longevity of their "player".

Having said that... Thank you to the parents, for having your kids involved in sports.

In my full-time profession, I get kids of "parents" who have ignored them.