I have been seeing more players pulling their shirts over their face when a call is made against them. My opinion is that this is a direct attempt to disrespect an official and should be charged a T.

What are your opinions?

No disagreement here, that sounds like a direct T to me.

Player technical fro sure in this instance. Should come under rule 10.3.8a. "Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in such a manner as to indicate resentment". Even if it was not meant as disrespectful, but to celebrate a win in the final seconds of a game, it could be a technical.

In other sports, official has the right to eject you from the game, e.g. soccer. HS player in Baltimore ended his HS career after ripping his shirt off celebrating a first half goal.

Try a stern word to the coach and/or player before you go to the T. It's not directed at you, so don't take it personally. Try to work with the coach and s/he'll thank you for it.

No one could criticize you for calling a technical. Just because it MIGHT not be directed at you (and I am not so sure about that since the player is definitely reacting to your call) doesn't make it acceptable behavior.

Maybe the player is experiencing deep shame and regret for causing you to use your whistle and is attempting to hide his face?

I would disagree with that.

Chuck, let me ask you a question - would you allow this kind of behavior in a woman's game? :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TravelinMan

Quote:

Chuck, let me ask you a question - would you allow this kind of behavior in a woman's game? :)

Depends on what she looks like... ;)

From this question, it occurs to me that I may not be envisioning this the way everybody else sees it.

If the shirt is removed, or the torso exposed, then I would probably agree that this is so overt that it can't be ignored.

However, if the top of the shirt is simply pulled up to hide the player's face, I would almost certainly not give a T.

I wouldn't give a T either in this instance. I was seeing more overt response. OK, we are in agreement then.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by w_sohl

Quote:

Originally posted by TravelinMan Quote: Chuck, let me ask you a question - would you allow this kind of behavior in a woman's game? :) Depends on what she looks like... ;)

w_sohl, I don't know but if Dolly P. played basketball guys would come for miles around to see her get T'd up! LOL

I am tlking about pulling it up to cover his head
 

You have seen these guys do this. They pull their jersey up over their face, drop their hands, and walk around.

Re: I am tlking about pulling it up to cover his head
 

Actually, Damian, I have not seen guys do that. I don't know what I'd do with that. I hope that fad doesn't work its way to MA.

I wouldn't call the T. Everything is a situation, but from what was given, I'm not going to interptret this as being about me.

I'd probably mention that if he wants to stay in the game to get his shirt tucked in and keep it in. Otherwise, I'm not stirring the pot. My initial reaction when I read this post (and I have never seen this on the court) was that of shame. You know, like the ostrich head in the sand thing.

BTW, I have been coaching soccer for 10 years, I have never seen a player carded or even talked to by an official for pulling the shirt over the head in celebration of a goal. This type of celebration is not all that uncommon in the sport of soccer. I saw it happen this weekend as a matter of fact.

I dont see a T here. If you think it's a problem, tell him to keep his shirt tucked. If it happens again, have him replaced for having the shirt untucked.

Footlocker, it happened to a star varsity player in the Baltimore area. Do you think I make these things up? Footlocker, what level have you coached soccer at?

As far as the T is concerned, I had a player react to a foul I called on him by pulling his shirt from his waiste clear up to his face and making an unintelligible grunting sound proceded by a very unfriendly staring. I gave him a T. End of story. Maybe your sitchs have been different but that is what I thought the thread was talking about.

Here's the article. Player was player of the year in Maryland.

Originally published November 26, 2003
PLAYER OF THE YEAR

Saah Johnson, Oakland Mills

No striker in the Baltimore area drew more defenders than Johnson. Double-teamed and often triple-teamed, he still managed to score in all but two games with his combination of skill, finesse and quickness. He led the county in scoring (21 goals, seven assists), including a 1-0 game-winner that gave the No. 1-ranked and Class 3A state champion River Hill its only loss. He also scored winners in 1-0 contests against Centennial, Poolesville and Howard. Johnson, who transferred from Mount St. Joseph after his sophomore year, scored multiple goals five times, including a season-high four against Howard. His season was cut short in a 2-1 state semifinal loss to Pocomoke when he was ejected for pulling his shirt over his head after tying the score.

Thanks for posting the article. I never said that your article was bullsh!t. I will say that this does not change the fact that I have never seen a scolding, card, ejection or even an evil-eye from an official at a soccer game for celebration with shirt over the head. Soccer is a different culture. If you think I am making this up, as you are suggesting by bring my experience into question check out this site.

http://www.footballculture.net/games..._feedback.html

Now, I have heard of players removing corner flags to be used as part of the celebration, this has earned players yellows. There is a rule change that is supposed to be in effect for FIFA in July of this year where they intend to penalize celebrations which include removal of the jersey with a yellow card. At our club, players are more fearful of the coaching staff than the officials for such celabratory practices.

Now, back to basketball: It was your game, do what you want. Clearly, my thoughts about handling the situation that you suggested are shared by others as well. As I said, everything is a situation and you are obviously confident that your call was correct.

For me,
"Player A, if you want to stay in the game, you'll tuck your shirt in and keep it in."

Then I move on.

Footlocker, I guess what really irks me about your comments on soccer is that you are assuming I know nothing about the sport. I was not suggesting that an ejection for pulling your shirt over head is common, merely that it occurred recently in a HS varsity level state playoff game.
As I mentioned, I lived on Long Island and upstate NY, then NC. All hotbeds for soccer. Over the past 15 years I have travelled to places all over the country, Canada and Europe for my older son's select team. My older son was the starting sweeper on the state championship team. Our HS has won 6 state titles and the coach was written up in Sports Illustrated. Please don't lecture to me about soccer. I am quite familiar with the sport (I've even been to some MetroStars games - 2 of our players from the '92 HS team were on the Metrostars)

As far as basketball, my situation with the shirt demanded a technical. As they say, nip it in the bud (this is the correct slang).

I have seen this happen a couple of times in the past year, but not in any game I was working. In the instances I witnessed, the act did not appear to be directed at the official or to the crowd, either of which would warrant a T from me. I like the suggestion of the warning about keeping the shirt tucked in. It should get the point across without being heavy handed. However, the act is a sign of frustration, which should not go unnoticed by the officials.

for footlocker and TravlinMan
 

Guys, The problem that you are having is that you are talking about two different sets of soccer rules:

1. FIFA Laws of the Game, which are adapted by the USSF for club play in the US

2. NFHS rules, which are used for scholastic high school games.

Under USSF delaying the restart of play by excessively celebrating a goal is listed as a cautionable offense (yellow card).

However, under NFHS removing one's shirt after a goal, which automatically constitutes excessive celebration, is punished by a disqualification (soft red = yellow and red cards shown together). The team is allowed to replace this player with a substitute.

Here's the NFHS rule citation: 12-8-2b and 12.8.1 and 2 Situation A (d) Following the scoring of a goal, player removes shirt. Ruling: in (d) the referee shall disqualify the player for excessive celebration.

So, strangely, you're both correct.
I officiate matches under both rule sets and have duly punished this act as a caution in USSF play, and as a disqualification in a high school game.

Nevadaref,

Outstanding post. Thanks for the clarification. I never reffed high school soccer (despite being asked to) because I'm not interested in crossing the line from coach to ref here. I appreciate your input. I have been a club soccer coach for ten years and have never been interested in watching a high school game (they're not nearly as competitive as club in my part of the country) until this upcoming year when my brother will begin his HS soccer career.

TravelinMan,

Never meant to "irk" you; I made no assupmtions. Don't take things so personally.

P.S. I'm not in sports illustrated. So I guess you win.;)

OK, footlocker, let's shake hands.

Nevada, thanks for that rule info. I need you as my mentor when I learn ALL the rules and start officiating next year.

I'll be happy to help with anything you need. Just post your questions or situations on the soccer forum or you can e-mail me.

Yes, it is. Thanks for clearing that up!

It's even in the dictionary:

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Main Entry: 1 nip
Pronunciation: 'nip
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): nipped; nip·ping
Etymology: Middle English nippen; akin to Old Norse hnippa to prod
transitive senses
1 a : to catch hold of and squeeze tightly between two surfaces, edges, or points : PINCH, BITE (the dog nipped his ankle) b : to pinch in (as a garment) (a dress nipped at the waist)
2 a : to sever by or as if by pinching sharply b : to destroy the growth, progress, or fulfillment of (nipped in the bud)



[Edited by Nevadaref on May 6th, 2004 at 03:40 AM]

OK, how about this.

Player is called for a 5th foul or is being taken out at the end of a tourney game that they are losing. I have seen players take their shirt out and pull it over their head in an attempt to hide the tears.