When a player or players enter the floor and their numbers are not in the book, it equates to 1 T for all the offenses. If, a few minutes later, another player enters the game without his number in the book, another T is issued. Correct or not? Or is it just 1 T for the whole night?

The T is administrative, and you only have one per team. The "error" is having to change the book. Once you penalize a team for that there is no more penalty. So, another T is not issued.

(This is explained in rule 10 on the issue I think.)

I am not so sure......
 

about that. If you have A1 come into the game with a wrong number in the first quarter, and A6 comes in later in the fourth quarter, you have to give 2 different Ts. It is only one T if the actions are like all starters or more than one starter is wrong and you notice as the game starts or after the 10 min. mark before the game. But the book can be incorrect and if the game starts and players come in at different time, you must give a T for each instance (not necessarily player) it happens.

Re: I am not so sure......
 

Rut,
That's the way I understand it, also.
mick

Sorry mick and Rut but that's incorrect.

If the scorer has not been supplied with the name and number of every player and the starters by the 10 minute mark, it is a technical foul. (10-1-1) After the ten minute mark, only one technical foul can be called for a scorebook infraction, no matter how many there are.(10-1-2a-e) So, you can have two T's on the book, one at the 10 minute mark and one more after that. That's it, no matter how many more changes you have to make in the book.

10-1
A team shall not:
ART. 1 Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each squad member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time.
ART. 2 After the time limit specified in Article 1:

a. Change a designated starter unless necessitated as in 3-2-2a.
b. Add a name to the squad list.
c. Require the scorer to change a squad member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Require a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Have identical numbers on squad members and/or players.

PENALTY: (All articles) Two free throws plus ball for division-line throw-in. <B>(Art. 1) One foul for both requirements. (Art. 2) One foul only per team regardless of the number of infractions.</B> (Art. 2a) Penalized if discovered before ball becomes live to start game. (Arts. 1, 2b, c, d) Penalized when they occur. (Art. 2e) Penalized when discovered.

TH,

That is not what is being asked. We are not talking about changes after the 10 min. mark, we are talking about players that come into the game after the game starts, no one noticed that number 23 and 45 were in the book. Then when in the first quarter 45 comes in the game and not listed, that is a T. Then number 23 comes into the game at the fourth quarter, that is another T.

Now if they both come into the game at the same time, one T for the mistake. Mick and I are not talking about changes to the book, we are talking about substitutions and I believe that is the question that was asked about, substitutions.

Jeff,

You can call a T at the 10 minute mark if the criteria found in 10-1-1 is not met.

After <b>the 10 minute mark until the end of the game</b>, you can only have one T on the score book for any of the reasons listed in 10-1-2a-e.

It doesn't matter how many subs come in that are not in the book. It doesn't matter how many numbers are wrong. It doesn't matter if you have 3 pairs of players who have the same number. Only one T can be assessed after <b>the 10 minute mark until the end of the game</b>, no matter how many changes are made in the book.

If you disagree, that's fine. But provide a rule reference or case book play to back it up. That way, we can all understand what rule you're basing your opinion on.

TH

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 01:46 AM]

Boy, I hate it when it's like this. Mick and Rut on one side and BBallRef on the other. All 3 of you guys are the answer men. But who's right this time? Which way is it? I tend to agree with BBR that is is probably only 1 T per game by what I can understand from the book. But it just doesn't seem right for it to be this way. If this is allowed, the coach could start pulling people out of the stands and putting them on the floor as long as they have a uniform. To me the rule is just not that clear.

I don't know about anywhere else, but I believe the CT state association handles this one with an automatic forfeit of any game played with ineligible players.

Possibly, but . . .
 

There are other rules, which you do not enforce, that deal with who is eligible to play. If a coach plays ineligible players in any league at any level that I have coached, it results in a forfeit. So the only issue should be that eligible team members are not in the book and the book needs to be fixed, because the coach can't just put anyone who happens to be in the arena into the game.

As for the technical rule, I always thought that it worked the way Rut has it. But this discussion makes it clear that the rule is not.

I think we are confusing two different situations and their penalties.

When is there an illegal sub? When you don't report or if you come in before we beckon. I will split hairs and consider the following to really be an illegal sub: If you are already DQ'd, change numbers (except when there is a blood or damage issue), or wear an illegal uniform (number, colors, design etc.). In two of these cases you issue a T to the player when they occur, if you snooze you lose the T when the ball becomes live (for all the nit pickers, yes, you give the t when discovered and the head coach would get an indirect if the DQ'd player came back in). You can issue as many of these T's as the coach is dumb enough to allow .

Now, a team is assessed one T <u> for the whole game </u> if they change a starter w/o just cause (injury, illness, etc), add a name(s) to the book, change the player number in the book, change the player uni to match the book, or have identical numbers in the book. There is no live ball restriction to this rule, it is assessed when it occurs or is discovered.

In the situation listed earlier if two new players come in a different times, there would be only one T total. This would be for adding players to the book after the 10 minute mark.


On a whole different tangent these rules do become intertwined and a problem in regard to player numbers. If A comes in wearing 3 and he should have been 1, and the coach tells us his lineup was wrong change the book we will hit the player with a T (10-3-1) and the team with a T (10-2-2-c). If later on another player comes in wearing the wrong number and we have to change the book, we just hit the player because the maximum 1 team T had been assessed.

Or worse, A1 comes in and play starts. During the first dead ball the scorer calls us over and tells us there is no A1 in the book. It is too late to T the player, but we can still hit the team with the T (as long as a team T had not been given earlier for the 10-2-2 rule).

[Edited by Brian Watson on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 08:54 AM]

Just let 'em play!
 

Could this be?
At the end of the 1st quarter, all the team members put on #2 and there is one technical foul issued.
After halftime has started, all team members put on #4. No technicals. Each sub plays and is wearing #4. Each sub comes in at a legal dead ball. No technicals?
At the end of the third, all the players on the floor are wearing #22.
Do we have to go to Rule 2-3? If we do then we have no guidelines for penalties. What am I missing?

A voice of reason?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brian Watson
[B]I think we are confusing two different situations and their penalties.

When is there an illegal sub? When you don't report or if you come in before we beckon. I will split hairs and consider the following to really be an illegal sub: If you are already DQ'd, change numbers (except when there is a blood or damage issue), or wear an illegal uniform (number, colors, design etc.). In two of these cases you issue a T to the player when they occur, if you snooze you lose the T when the ball becomes live (for all the nit pickers, yes, you give the t when discovered and the head coach would get an indirect if the DQ'd player came back in). You can issue as many of these T's as the coach is dumb enough to allow .

Now, a team is assessed one T <u> for the whole game </u> if they change a starter w/o just cause (injury, illness, etc), add a name(s) to the book, change the player number in the book, change the player uni to match the book, or have identical numbers in the book. There is no live ball restriction to this rule, it is assessed when it occurs or is discovered.

In the situation listed earlier if two new players come in a different times, there would be only one T total. This would be for adding players to the book after the 10 minute mark.


On a whole different tangent these rules do become intertwined and a problem in regard to player numbers. If A comes in wearing 3 and he should have been 1, and the coach tells us his lineup was wrong change the book we will hit the player with a T (10-3-1) and the team with a T (10-2-2-c). If later on another player comes in wearing the wrong number and we have to change the book, we just hit the player because the maximum 1 team T had been assessed.

Or worse, A1 comes in and play starts. During the first dead ball the scorer calls us over and tells us there is no A1 in the book. It is too late to T the player, but we can still hit the team with the T (as long as a team T had not been given earlier for the 10-2-2 rule).

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 4th, 2001 at 11:18 AM]

Re: Just let 'em play!
 

Guys,

Some of you are confusing two different issues and rules.

mick,

Players can't play with the same numbers. Hopefully, if 5 players wearing #2 or # 4 or #22 walked onto the floor you would make them change before you started play.

Players can't change their numbers without reporting to the scorer. If a player is forced to change a jersey because of a torn shirt or blood, there is no T. If the wrong number is in the book, there is only one T called no matter how many times it happens. (10-1-2) If he changes to deceive, then we have a player T under 10-3-1. This completely different sitch.



Brian,

I'm afraid you're mistaken on both of the situations.

If a player's number is wrong in the book, it is not a T on the player. Read the note to mick above for a clearer understanding of when to enforce 10-3-1.

If a player is added to the scorebook, the T must be called when the name is added. It doesn't matter whether the player has played or not. You're correct that he is legally in the game when the ball has become live. But if he's not in the book, the scorer should notify the nearest official and he should call a T and add the name to the scorebook. It is not to late to call the T and it is not a T on the player. If a coach walks up to the scorer in the middle of the first qtr. and says I need to add #12 to the book, she must add him. But she must also inform tan official at the next dead ball so the T can be assessed. If she doesn't, then it's too late. The T is assessed based on when the name is put in the book, not on when and whether the player plays or not. I offer the casebook play below as proof. In fact, several of the case book plays under 3.2 offer insight as to handle these plays.

3.2.2C. Play: Team A, No. 14, reports and is beckoned onto the court and the ball is put in play with a throw-in. The scorer beckons the referee at the first dead ball and reports that there is no No. 14 listed in the scorebook. Ruling: Number 14 became a player when the ball became live, however, since his or her name and number must now be entered into the scorebook, a technical foul is charged to Team A. (10-1-2b)

Ralph,

I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me. It's a discussion board. We're going to have disagreements. That's how we learn.

I pride myself on studying and understanding the rule book. If that's being an answer man, then I guess I am. I always back up what I'm saying with a rule or case book reference. I wish others would do the same. If more people would research their stand before posting, we would have fewer disagreements. Everyone has an opinion but not everyone can back up what they're saying.

BTW, thanks for agreeing with me. :)

Tony

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 09:45 AM]

Let's recap, please.
 

Tony,
If #12 is added at one point (1st Qtr), and due to a short bench and foul trouble, Coach adds JV player #14 (3rd Qtr), and later adds JV player #10 (4th Qtr),
Then you are calling one team Technical, and I want three?

Is that still our misunderstanding? :)
mick

It is two different situations. If the coach tells the ref and the scorer before sending the sub in that he has to add some1, then there is just one T. The way I read the rule, and how I worded my post was if the player comes to the table, is not in the book, and wants to come in. There would be two separate penalties. One has to be assessed at that moment, one can be assessed any time.

Brian --

I agree with the team T, but where do you get the player T?

The player reported and was beckoned, so it's not a violation of 10-2. The number was never changed (and, let's be clear -- that's to prevent deception), the player wasn't DQ'd, the number and uniform were legal, the player didn't leave the court, ... , so there's no violation of 10-3.

Mick --

Tony has this right. It's just one foul, whether the coach wants to add one JV player at a time or three at once. If there's an issue with eligibility, that's for the IHSA (or for you the MHSAA) to decide -- I just officiate the game.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson Mick -- Tony has this right. It's just one foul, whether the coach wants to add one JV player at a time or three at once. If there's an issue with eligibility, that's for the IHSA (or for you the MHSAA) to decide -- I just officiate the game.

Bob,
My JV players weren't meant to add confusion.
I was assuming they were eligible.
I was attempting to state a case for how it could happen.
Yup, I'm confused <s>again</s> yet.
mick

I would consider a player not in the book to be in violation of 10-3-3 "Illegal Number". Maybe I am taking it to literal, but if it is not in the book, is it not illegal? (I think I listed 10-3-1 by mistake in an earlier post)

Or do we consider 6-9 and 0/00 together the only definition of illegal number?

Does it help clearify Article 2 of the Penalty:

Only one foul per team regardless of the number of infractions.

to restate it as

Only one foul per team regardless of the number of players violating the rule.


For example:

One minute into the game, Team A requests three players to be added to the book, that's one (not three) Technical.

Then, five minutes later, two players' numbers need to be changed in the book. Thats one more Technical.

If either of these two rules (or any other from 10.2) is violated again later in the game, it's one additional T.

My interp, too.
 

Gary,
That works for me, but, I am thinking, that is not what is being said.
mick

10-3-1 states "A player shall not: Art. 1... Participate after changing his/her number without reporting it to the scorers and an official."

What must the player do?
He/she must report to the scorers and an official.

Why must the player report?
He/she changed his/her number.

What does it mean for a player to change his/her number?
IMHO it means that the player takes off the jersey that he/she is wearing and puts on one with a different number. It is not a coach writting the wrong number in the scorebook.

Re: My interp, too.
 

Mick

Am I confused? I thought there are two issues being discussed:

How may T's can be called under 10-2?

Is it a player T for having a number that isn't in the book?

Gary

I'm not sure anymore.
 

<hr color="red">


Gary,
I think, based on your quote directly above, with your examples, only one Team T is being called for all of the above, and for the entire game. Call the first one and pass on everything else as far as Team T goes.
I don't feel confident about it working that way.
mick

Re: I'm not sure anymore.
 

Mick

The previous post was meant to support the position that
each time a rule is violated it is one Team T regardless of the number of players involved in each violation. So, yes, you can have more than one team T in a game. But it's not based on the number of players violating the rule, but the number of different times the rule is violated.

Gary

Yes, I still agree
 

Gary,
I am still with you on this.
That is not what is being proposed, though. See below.
Help! I'm drowning!
mick

<hr color="red">

I think you're misreading (or at least reading it differently than I) the word "illegal". 3-4-3 "The following numbers are legal: ..." The implication being that it's numbers not listed that are illegal.

I'd treat 0 and 00 as duplicate (not illegal) numbers (that's why the rule was changed -- because the electronic scoreboards / stat books being used couldn't differentiate between them). The book doesn't say it, but I'd treat 1 and 01 the same way.

Gary --

The phrase is "one foul per team" not "one foul per incident (regardless of the number of infractions)". It means just that -- one per team (per game).

If they meant it the other way, they would have worded it like they did the penalty for bench personnel entering the court during a fight (10-4-4). Here, it's one indirect per occurence -- if there are two fights, it's two indirects.

Re: Yes, I still agree
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
[QUOTE]

Gary,
I am still with you on this.
That is not what is being proposed, though. See below.
Help! I'm drowning!
mick

Guess I need to spend more time reading. I now agree with TH and disagree with Rut. Look at 3.2.2:

"Art 2... After the time limit specified in Article 1, a team is charged with a maximum of one technical foul regardless of how many infractions of the following are committed (See 10-1-1, 2 Peanalty):
a. Changing a designated starter...
b. Adding a name to the squad list.
c. Requiring the scorer to change a squad member's or player's number in the scorebook.
d. Requiring a player to change to the number in the scorebook.
e. Having identical numbers on squad members and/or players."

Isn't it nice when the Case Book actually answers things for us...once we call an administrative T on a team for having to have someone's number changed in the book, that's it, can't call any more T's for that...as stated before, see Case Book 3.2.2A...one easy way out of that is to take a minute after the T is called and have the scorer check all #'s and names for both teams to make sure there are no more discrepancies...

Gary,
TH and Bob agree with the reading.
I believe that they always foul the rule.
I like them.
I like to follow the rules.
I do not like that rule, because it does not seem fair to me.

I guess a reason for that rule could be that a scorekeeper could list all the names and then list all the numbers, but somehow slip a row and then have all the numbers wrong and maybe one left over. I can see where that would be penalized only once in a game.

I dunno. But, thanks for helping.

mick

WHEW! What a post! I hope I didn't offend anyone during the course of the discussion. I'm arguing a point, not arguing with any person(s). It sounds like we're all on the same page now, except for mick, who kinda believes it but doesn't like it. :)

10-1-1 covers the requirement to have the lineups and starters to the scorer by the 10 minute mark. One T can be assessed if that doesn't happen.

10-1-2 covers the 5 things that can happen with the book that require a change to be made. There can only be 1 T called no matter how many changes are made in the book until the game is over. If the change is made in the book, the T must be assessed before the next live ball.

None of this has anything to do with a player wearing an illegal number. That's a completely separate issue.

We seem to have this happen at tournaments quite a bit. What happens is that a team wears different numbers based on their home jerseys versus their away jerseys. The offical scorer just copies the lineup from one day when a team is home to the book on the next day when the team is the visitor. Suddenly , we have 15 numbers that are all wrong. For that reason, we're always real careful to check the numbers, especially during tournaments.

BTW, we don't call a T when this happens.

PS- Thanks for your help Bob.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 04:50 PM]

Now you're sounding like a coach! ;)

TH, why?
 

:o

Why would you offend anyone? You just made an argument and stood by it. That is what you are suppose to do. You actually are correct on this one, but I still do not feel good about it. Because it seems to me that you could after the first mistake keep trying to deceive and having number problems. But I will look further in the rulebook, but I probably will not find anything, I haven't so far.

Just trying to get along with everybody, Jeff. We all need more friends and fewer enemies. ;)

Whew is right.
 

Tony,
That's a fact!
I am tryin'.
mick

Thanks for all the replies guys. I think we've gotten to the bottom of this. BBallRef, when I referred to you as an answer man, it was meant as a compliment, not a shot. I just wanted to make sure you understood that. Thanks for all the replies, Ralph.

Consider it understood and consider this a thank you.