case book questions

[MattRef]

I have a couple of questions about a couple of cases in the case book, so get your copy out and help me out.

My first question concerns 3.2.2F on page 15. Allow me to quote the text:

"Team A takes a time-out following about two minutes of pla in the first quarter. the scorer signals the referee to the table for a discussion. The scorer indicates that although team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 stated instead and is still i the game."

According to the book, there is no penalty for changing a starter after play has begun, quoting 10.1.2a and 3.2.2a. But in neither of these rules does it differentiate between when play has started or not. In act, in a previous case (3.2.2C), they still penalize for adding a player to the score book after he has played for an undetermined length of time. Can someone explain this apparent discrepancy? I am a bit confused.

My second question deals with case 4.15.4C(c). here is the text:

"After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (c) against his/her own backboard, catches the rebound and dribbles again."

In (a) and (b), A1 throws the ball against the official or against the opponent's backboard, both constituting a double dribble. But in (c), it isn't a double dribble. Someone please explain the difference in dribbling it against your own backboard vs. against the opponent's backboard? In the ruling, they state; "in (c), the action is legal as a player's own backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, but does not constitute a part of a dribble."
If I understand it correctly, if it is treated as a part of the floor inbounds, it should be a double dribble because A1's initial dribble had ended, and he attempted to resume it. please help me. Thanks!
Matt

[Brian Watson]

I need to look at the first one a bit harder, but in the second item, I think it is not a double dribble because possession ends on a try. Because it would place us in a hard spot to try and determine if throwing the ball off the backboard was a try or just a chance to get the dribble back it is legal. I, for one, would not want to split hairs on whether it was or was not a try.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by MattRef
I have a couple of questions about a couple of cases in the case book, so get your copy out and help me out.

My first question concerns 3.2.2F on page 15. Allow me to quote the text:

"Team A takes a time-out following about two minutes of pla in the first quarter. the scorer signals the referee to the table for a discussion. The scorer indicates that although team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 stated instead and is still i the game."

According to the book, there is no penalty for changing a starter after play has begun, quoting 10.1.2a and 3.2.2a. But in neither of these rules does it differentiate between when play has started or not. In act, in a previous case (3.2.2C), they still penalize for adding a player to the score book after he has played for an undetermined length of time. Can someone explain this apparent discrepancy? I am a bit confused.

Look at the penalty section for 10-1. Changing starters can only be penalized until the ball becomes live to start the game. Adding a name to the scorers list can be penalized anytime it happens (but only once, and only if another provision of 10-1-2 hasn't been penalized).

In the play in question, it's assumed that number 34 was in the book, just not designated as a starter. If he was not in the book, and not (obviously) designated a starter, you would have a T -- but for the roster addition, not the starter change.

[MattRef]

It pays to read the whole rule, and not just parts of it. I understand the reason why the change of starters wasn't penalized. Soetimes, I still wonder at their reasoning, but now I at least understand. Thanks, Bob!
Matt

[co2ice]

Matt: Brian is correct on the try for goal, the rule book states you cannot have a try or attempt at the opponents basket "only at ones own" basket(rule 4 sec.40 art.2) That is why it may be legal to throw the ball off your own basket and continue the dribble. But what if its intentional? Is there an unfair advantage gained? If so do you call it? It seems I have more questions than answers.

[mick]

Originally posted by co2ice
Matt: Brian is correct on the try for goal, the rule book states you cannot have a try or attempt at the opponents basket "only at ones own" basket(rule 4 sec.40 art.2) That is why it may be legal to throw the ball off your own basket and continue the dribble. But what if its intentional? Is there an unfair advantage gained? If so do you call it? It seems I have more questions than answers.

co,
It's too simple.
If you throw it at your backcoard, it is like a shot.
Don't forget that there are opponents out there that can grab it off the board.
mick

[Mark Dexter]

Adding another player = work for us scorers = T.

Changing starter after beginning of game = scorers who, frankly, don't give a damn = no T.

Hope this helps :-)

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by MattRef
I have a couple of questions about a couple of cases in the case book, so get your copy out and help me out.

My first question concerns 3.2.2F on page 15. Allow me to quote the text:

"Team A takes a time-out following about two minutes of pla in the first quarter. the scorer signals the referee to the table for a discussion. The scorer indicates that although team A No. 32 was a designated starter, No. 34 stated instead and is still i the game."

According to the book, there is no penalty for changing a starter after play has begun, quoting 10.1.2a and 3.2.2a. But in neither of these rules does it differentiate between when play has started or not. In act, in a previous case (3.2.2C), they still penalize for adding a player to the score book after he has played for an undetermined length of time. Can someone explain this apparent discrepancy? I am a bit confused.

No wonder you're confused. You're question is confusing! :^)

If a coach changes starters prior to the game, it must be recognized before the ball becomes live to start the game. it doesn't matter if that's by a a jump ball or a FT.

When a player is not in the scorebook, a technical foul is assessed when his name is added to the book, not necessarily when he plays. If the coach walks up at the end of the first quarter and says "#12 just arrived. I want his name put in the book." We now have a technical foul. But the scorer must notify an official before the ball becomes live to start the 2nd quarter. Different scenario - If #12 came into the game and the scorer discovered his name was not in the book, she would notify an official, put his name in the book, and the T would be assessed then. So either way, the T is assessed when the player is addedd to the squad list.

[/QUOTE]My second question deals with case 4.15.4C(c). here is the text:

"After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball: (c) against his/her own backboard, catches the rebound and dribbles again."

In (a) and (b), A1 throws the ball against the official or against the opponent's backboard, both constituting a double dribble. But in (c), it isn't a double dribble. Someone please explain the difference in dribbling it against your own backboard vs. against the opponent's backboard? In the ruling, they state; "in (c), the action is legal as a player's own backboard is treated the same as touching the floor inbounds, but does not constitute a part of a dribble."
If I understand it correctly, if it is treated as a part of the floor inbounds, it should be a double dribble because A1's initial dribble had ended, and he attempted to resume it. [/QUOTE]

But Matt, you just read the rule. The rule says it is the the same as touching the floor inbounds, except that when the ball touches the thrower's backboard it does not constitute a part of a dribble. The rule says it's not the same as a dribble, so it can't be a double dribble. Would it be any different if the ball hit the rim, even though it wasn't a try? No, it wouldn't.

Throwing the ball against your opponenet's backboard - How about a player who has picked up his dribble in the BC? If not for this restriction, he could legally throw the ball against the backboard and start another dribble.

I believe the purpose of the exception is so that officials would not have to make a judgment as to whether the ball hitting the backboard is a shot or not. That's reserved for airballs.

When you see this, just think of the airball rule. It's not traveling to catch an airball and it's not a double dribble if the ball hits his backboard.