After Team A scores, B1 catches the ball as it bounces in the lane. He passes it to B2 who is standing near the endline, anticipating that B2 will step out of bounds and then inbounds the ball. Instead B2 begins dribbling downcourt, apparently thinking B1 was beyond the endline when he passed the ball. Is this a violation, or do you blow your whistle and direct Team B to take it out of bounds on the endline?

What level are we talking about? If is was frosh or below, call it back, if not call the violation.

We've beat this one to death on several different boards. I emailed Richard Knox, the Chairman of the NF Basketball Rues Committee. He replied that a delay of game warning should be called or a technical called if a warning has already been issued.

It's not a violation and you can't start your five second count. A delay of game is about all that's left.

That seems a bit harsh.

What violation are you going to call? They haven't committed a violation. Actaully, isn't a delay of game warning less harsh than taking the ball from them?

How is the player not fully behind the end line any different than stepping over it? I wouldn't split hairs and would call a throw in violation.

It's different because the throw-in hasn't started. If the throw-in hasn't started, there can't be a throw-in violation.

To do that is to make up your own rules Brain. Bob is right. You can't have a throw-in violation until the throw-in starts. A player who hasn't stepped OOB has started the throw-in. A player who has stepped OOB, if only with one foot, has started the throw-in. That's how it's different.

in my games, if i step over the line BEFORE throughing the ball inbounds, the ref just moves me back.
however, if i was over the line while passing i'm sure the ref would give me some kind of violation

First off, why after a made basket do we "take the ball OOB" because the ball is dead! Blow your whistle and get the players to take the ball OOB. This is a great way to "teach" and give's them the chance to fix the mistake, if that dosen't work then issue a formal "Delay of Game" warning! I aggree that is the only proper action to take at this point.

I believe this "preventive officating" will go a long way toward's the players, coaches and fans respecting you as a good offical.

Good Luck in 2001
Happy New Year

Because I'm new, I work mostly with freshman and below players. In that situation, I always point to the OOB area and say something like "Remember now, take it out first". It sort of helps these little gals along without getting into a sticky situation as the above. However, for the few high school JV games I officiate, I would be interested in the correct call here.

doghead,
I always used to call 5 sec., even if they were already down the court. I am now going with the result of Tony's correspondence with Richard Knox <i>(below, as posted above)</i>
mick

No, it's not dead. Once the ball is at the disposal of the team entitled to it, it's a live ball.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Quote:

It's different because the throw-in hasn't started. If the throw-in hasn't started, there can't be a throw-in violation.

Bob--

You answered my question about this in a previous thread, and I went back and looked through the books, to confirm your idea here. If this is the consensus of everyone, I'm willing to go with it, but it looks to me like an interpretation, not a hard and fast rule. The book says the throw-in starts when, "the ball is available to the player" who is going to in-bound. Well, if the ball is in the very hands of the team that didn't score, isn't that "available?" That is the only wording I could find anywhere in the books that applied in the way you are describing. Okay, so if Knox is interpreting this as "available" meaning that the player is holding the ball OOB, I'll live with that, but it seems pretty thin to me. Does this also apply if the ball is just sort of rolling along the floor and all five players run down court and no one grabs the ball? How much more available can the ball be than that?

Yikes, this sounds a little testy. I don't mean to raise my voice, I just feel confused.

Bktballref,

6-7-1

No -- it doesn't sound testy at all.

Yes -- it is an interpretation -- as I said before, you can "kind of" support (a) immediate violation; (b) 5-second violation; (c) "do-over".

I look at it like this: If I haven't started my 5-second count, if I'd let A have a TO, then the throw-in hasn't started.

In the original play, B1 grabbed the ball in the lane and tossed it to B2 who was supposed to take it out of bounds for the throw in. During that time, I'd not be starting my count, and would grant A a TO. So, when B2 starts up court, or immediately throws the ball to B3, the throw-in hasn't yet started.

In your play, where the ball is just rolling along the floor and all 5 players start for the other end, I give B a moment to recognize the issue. If they respond right away, then no problem -- I wait until they get the ball to start the count. If they don't, I start the count.

Don,

6-1-2b
The ball becomes live when:
b. On a throw-in, it is at the disposal of the thrower.

When "B1 catches the ball as it bounces in the lane," the ball is live. He doesn't have to step OOB for the ball to become live. When it's at his disposal, hence, when it's available for him to pickup or retrieve, it's no longer dead.

BTW Don, I don't disagree with you about blowing the whistle. In Jr. High, middle school or lower levels of play I would blow and have them inbound the ball properly. But at the high school level, I would issue the warning. They know better. Besides that, I've never seen it happen at JV or varsity levels.

Tony


[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 1st, 2001 at 10:32 AM]

The problem with starting your 5 second, in the original play, is that a number of things could happen before you reach 5. The player with the ball could throw along pass to a wide open teammate for a 3. The ball could be stolen by A. In either situation, we have a bigger problem than we did orignally and a big explanation to follow. That's why Mr. Knox said to kill the play with a delay of game warning. Nothing good can come from allowing the ball to continue up the floor. I really think the worst thing you can do here is start the 5 second count.

Either blow the delay of game or make them come back and do it right.

On the play that Juulie posted about 5 players running up court, I agree with Bob. I start the 5 second count since the ball is available and no one is making an effort to go after it. If you don't blow 5 seconds here, a winning team could allow time to expire.

Thanks for this. I thought I was right, and it feels good to be confirmed. This did actually happen to me after the last thread on this subject a few weeks ago. But before this post. (Does that make it a False Double Post?) My partner corrected me (during play, by the way, which I didn't like) and I backed down because of the previous post, but went home and looked it up. It's nice to know that I was not wrong. That doesn't happen very often!

Throw-in
 

Rule 4 Section 41 Art 2 "A Throw-in is a method of putting the ball in play from out of bounds"

I am assuming the origional post was referring to a lower level game, in a varsity contest if the players are draging there feet i will start a visible and audable count and that will take care of that situation right now.

I stand by my first reply that the ball is in-bounded because it became dead after the basket was made. In the "OLD" days they had a jump ball after each made basket.

I belive this is where COMMON SENCE officating come's into play if you have younger players teach them, if you have older players then it's a 5-second violation not a delay of game.

Example: If after a time out the players are not out of the huddle you place the ball on the floor and start your 5-second count, if the defence is still in the huddle then it's an uncontested basket. (and believe me the last one of that game)

It's a delay of game warning and or a tec if the team that just scored touch's the ball and interupt's or delays the start of the throw-in.

Have Fun

Re: Throw-in
 

So if the ball never went out of bounds, it can't be a throw-in. QED.

I understand your confusion on the "warning". I raised the same issue when I read Mr. Knox's reply -- it's not one of the three official warnings allowed in 4-46.

I'm guessing that what was meant was an "unofficial" warning for 10-1-5b --i.e., a warning that isn't in the book but is good game management as opposed to calling the T right away on an inadvertant mistake.

Re: Re: Throw-in
 

Exactly. Mr. Knox will tell you that it's impossible to write a rule for every possible situation that could occur during a basketball game. He's made this statement to me on a couple of occasions.