I had a game a few weeks ago where a held ball was called, Team A had the arrow, and on the resulting throw-in, A2 committed a foul. Now, should the arrow be switched, or does it stay the same because A1 never released the ball??

At the game, the arrow stayed in favour of A.

6-3-4
The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates.

Doesn't saything about reversing it because of a foul, does it? ;)

That was the main thing i had trouble with, does that foul count as a violation on the throwing team??

A keeps the arrow here.

The arrow only turns after the throw-in has completed.

There are two ways a throw-in can end: (i) the throw-in is completed and (ii) the throwing-in team violates during the throw-in.

A throw-in is completed when the legally inbounded ball touches a player inbounds first, including the intentional act of B kicking the ball. A throwing-in violation could result via a 5-second count, stepping in the inbounds portion of the court, moving outside of the allocated throw-in location, or illegally inbounding the ball.

I think that covers everything... if there is soemthing else, someone please add it!

A foul isn't a violation and a violation isn't a foul.

Would the Arrow stay if the foul was a technical foul?

Scenario: Arrow favors team A. Held ball situation. Before the throw-in can begin, A's coach gets T'd up.
Does the arrow change?

<FONT SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana">
(Incidentally, I am glad to see some officials know of this rule. Every time this comes up at one of my games and the officials wonder why the arrow didn't change, I get weird looks like I'm making rules up).</FONT>

Is a technical foul a foul?

If you can answer that question, then you can answer your own question too!

Jumpin in here at a moments notice. What do you do when A fouls on A's throw in and it puts them in the bonus? I'm sure the answer is obvious but I'm not seeing it at the moment.

You have B shoot free-throws...next held ball, the arrow will still be A's...

I really don't like this aspect. As far as I'm concerned, the arrow should change when the ball is handed to the thrower. Everything that happens after that is a direct result of the throw in, therefore the arrow has served its purpose.

But, I'm not on "the committee." :)

NCAA. No Free throws. Team control foul.

So A has the arrow, you hand them the ball, and have the arrow switched, then B4 grabs A4 and throws him/her to the floor before the ball is thrown-in...you properly call the foul but A never gets their throw-in??? And you like that idea???

Not quite...

A throw-in is completed when the legally inbounded ball touches <s>a player inbounds first</s> another player inbounds or out-of-bounds.

It is a legal throwin to pass the ball such that the player that touches it is OOB (but not on the same boundary line). It is a violation...but it is not a throwin violation. So, an arrow is switched when either the defense or offense touches the ball while OOB.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Apr 20th, 2004 at 03:37 PM]

Right On Rocky! That's a good example of WHY we don't have the arrow changed when the ball is handed to the thrower. Here's another....I was doing the books for my sons HS team a few years ago and Team A had a violation on the initial second half AP throw in (after they were handed the ball!). The home team's , team A, clock operator left the arrow with A! We had no more jump balls the entire half.
With 5 seconds left and losing by one point there was an AP situation. Team A was "awarded" the ball under their basket. They called a timeout to set up ther final play.(FYI...I could not see the AP arrow from my seat, since it was facing the floor). I called over the two officials and confirmed that we had no other jump balls and that A violated on their initial throw in at the half. They corrected it and of course Team A was upset. It sealed the win for my sons team. DO I GET AN ASSIST ON THAT ONE? lol

Thanks Camron. I was in a hurry and I knew there'd be something I missed.

Very much. This foul is a direct result of the throw in, which is a result of the arrow. To me, the arrow should grant the right to have a throw in, not the right to a successful throwin.
Currently, I see the situation you set up above as unfairly penalizing a foul based on when it occurs.
Now, let's say A is throwing the ball in following an OOB violation and B1 fouls A2. Do we somehow preserve this throwin for later use? No. Yet many people think we should grant another throwin to the offended team if a defensive foul occurs following a held ball situation.
The way I see it, the defense is doubly penalized for a foul when it occurs during an AP throwin.

Uhm, Art. Your situation would not change under my proposal. The arrow would have switched to B when A got the ball, and your son's team would have still won. In fact, my way would simplify the rule and eliminate the need for exceptions like, "unless the throw-in team violates."

Now, I really fail to see how that really means much here anyway. A rule isn't more or less valid based on whose team it helps win?

An AP situation is completely different than an OOB violation.

Alternating possession was established for many reasons, none of which we really need to get into. But the premise is that each time a held ball occurs, there's a 50% chance that each team will get the ball. Therefore, unless that a team violates during their turn, they are entitled to 50% of the held ball possessions.

To not allow A to keep the arrow when B fouls, gives B consecutive possessions on held balls, not alternating possessions.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Apr 21st, 2004 at 08:56 AM]

I disagree. They get the possession for the throwin. The foul is a result of that throwin, just like any foul occurs as a result of live action that precedes it. By handing the ball to A1, live action begins.
It all boils down to the fact that I see everything that happens during a throwin (including fouls, violations, etc.) as being a direct result of that throwin. B1 isn't going to foul A2 if B has the ball in this case. Therefore, once the ball is handed to A1, the arrow has served its purpose and should be switched. IMO, of course.

Not really. A gets possession, it just results in a foul rather than play on the court.

By defintion, having the ball for a throw-in is not a possession.

I thought the only reason for using the arrow was that officials couldn't toss the ball straight!?!

semantics.

That was actually listed as one of the reasons when the rule was first initiated. There was a concern about a general lack of skill by officials in administering jump balls. They also wanted to speed the game up, and they used the reasoning that Tony detailed above about approximately 50% of the possessions going to either team anyway.

Held ball on AP throw in
 

So, TEAM A has the ball for a throw in and A1 is OOB at his/her spot. A1 reaches over / through the OOB line, into the inbounds area while holding the ball and B1 grabs the ball...held ball.

The throw in did not end by being inbounded or by violation, so the arrow does not change and the ball goes back to TEAM A for another throw in. Is that correct???

Re: Held ball on AP throw in
 

You got it :)

I guess I could buy yourarguments if it was called the "alternating throw-in" procedure, but it's not...you would be taking away a possession that team is entitled to because the other team commits a foul - that's not right...might as well say that when A1 is dribbling the ball and B1 fouls him/her but it's not the bonus, we're gonna give B the ball oob because A had their possession and to call a foul on B and give A the ball back would be penalizing B twice...doesn't make sense in either situation...

Re: Re: Held ball on AP throw in
 

Yes, the throw did end in this case. When it was touched by B1 who was inbounds the throw in was completed. Arrow changes and B now gets it.

Re: Re: Re: Held ball on AP throw in
 

Might want to re-think that, Rick:

7.6.3 SITUATION F: Thrower A1 inadvertently holds the ball through the end-line plane during a throw-in. B1 is able to get his/her hands on the ball and A1 cannot pull it back. RULING: There is no player or team control during a throw in, therefore a held ball is called, resulting in an alternating-possession throw-in. If the original throw-in is an alternating-possession throw-in, Team A still has the arrow following the held ball.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Held ball on AP throw in
 

Your Correct!! My bad, was thinking in terms of a OOB throw in, not AP. I stand corrected.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Held ball on AP throw in
 

Still, the throwin has not been completed on an OOB throw-in. The held ball happens before the throwin ends. A throwin has to be released to be completed.

Ah, but the award on an AP is the throwin, not the right to possession on the court. We don't let them keep the arrow if B2 steals the ball, or if A3 steps out of bounds. If we want their reward to be a "possession" then we should just go to playground rules just check the ball in at the top of the key.
I'm not taking anyone from anyone. That foul doesn't happen without the throwin. Let me put it this way.
On an OOB violation, the reward for the other team is a throwin at the spot. Yet, for a held ball, the reward is a "possession," according to your thoughts above. Why is the reward greater when there was technically no violation to begin with?

I will answer your scenario after you answer mine - since mine came first!!

It's not the same. The penalty for this foul is always a throwin for the fouled team, plus an addition to the team and player foul counts.
My point is that the arrow has served its purpose as soon as the ball is handed to A1, and giving A the next AP possession due to a foul on B during the ensuing throwin is tantamount to double-penalizing team B. You're giving A a throwin (or free throws) and the foul count *plus* the next AP throw-in; when they've already benefited from the AP arrow.

Now can you answer my question? :)

It's not a greater punishment...sorry, but it really is that simple. Team A was entitled to that throw-in, and to take that away from them because the other team does something "wrong" is, well, just wrong...that AP throw-in doesn't end until a normal throw-in ends, so if B fouls while the thrower is still holding the ball, the AP throw-in never ended...as far as some of your other points - if A decides to violate or throw a bad pass which is picked off by B, then A caused themselves to lose that throw-in, but you can't take it awqay because B does something against the rules...

I know no one sees it like I do, I just don't necessarily understand why. The throw-in is the reward on the AP, not a "possession." If that throw-in results in a foul on B, then A has received the full benefit of the AP arrow and I see no reason the rules *should* further benefit A by giving them the next arrow as well.
I know what the rules say, I just think it's philosophically wrong in this case. I think it boils down to what we think the result of the AP *should* be. Should it be a possession, or a throw-in? I think it should be a "throw-in," with all results of the throw-in considered as "results of the throw-in."

But, like I said before, I'm not on the rules committee.

Adam -- look at it from the other side of the coin. If the defense gets the arrow for fouling that constitutes an unfair reward. Sure they get the team foul and personal foul added on, and they may have to give up a point or two, but there's a reward, that could make it worth it to foul. Does that seem fair?

Juulie,
What's the reward? They get the next alternating possession? They would have had that anyway. There's no reward there.

and I don't necessarily understand why you see it the way that you do, but that's ok...it's been a fun dialogue...now, according to internet discussion board etiquette, we need to insult each other a few times just to show that we have really hashed this one out, so here goes: "Non possis distinguere tuum podicem a Puticulis"...so there!

Okay, but which one of us is going to call the other a Nazi?

Not if you don't change the arrow as the rule currently stands.

End game...B down by 7 with 1 minute to go. Held Ball. A has the arrow and gets the ball for a throwin. B has committed only 4 fouls. They're playing highly aggressive defensive on the throwin to try to get a steal without worrying about a foul. However, they do foul (before the throwin is touched).

Now we have two choices:

(1) Change the arrow and give the ball to A for a throwin as part of the penalty for the foul.

(2) Don't change the arrow and give the ball to A ....


There may or may not be another held ball and B wants to get to the bonus anyway. Another held ball could be pivotable.

In (1), B might as well kill two birds with one stone and get the arrow in the deal since it's for free. So, A gets nothing. They already had the ball for a throwin, now B fouls. They still have the ball, but lost the arrow. Not equitable.

In (2), B doesn't gain anything from fouling beyond a similar foul at any other time.

The Arrow is to grant team A the right to make the next "undecidable" throwin unless they mess it up. They can't lose it by B's actions.

Leave it to Camron to give a clear, useful explanation!

Oooops...you lose. Godwin's Law.

Oooooo, Rocky just called him a pusillanimous polecat. If anybody ever called me that, I'd get my dog to bite 'em!

Not quite...

Here's a good one to figure out:

Quando podeces te regi eorum fecerunt?

Here's a good one to figure out:

Quando podeces te regi eorum fecerunt?

[/B][/QUOTE]Hmmmmm. I get the "feces" part. I know what a "runt" is. Lemme guess. Got something to do with Chuck?

Hmmmmm. I get the "feces" part. I know what a "runt" is. Lemme guess. Got something to do with Chuck? [/B][/QUOTE]

Now come on..would there be a Latin word for "little sh1t"?

Although you're on the right track, sorta

Not true. The award is an opportunity to possess the ball. The throw-in is simply the vehicle used to give the award. It is not the award. :)

Now come on..would there be a Latin word for "little sh1t"?

Although you're on the right track, sorta [/B][/QUOTE]The latin word for "little sh1t" is Chuck, isn't it?

And when did the a$$holes make Chuck king? :D

So, Art, to whom did the officials administer the throw-in to start the 4th quarter and what did you say to them at that time? ;)

The latin word for "little sh1t" is Chuck, isn't it?

And when did the a$$holes make Chuck king? :D [/B][/QUOTE]

I always order Chuck King when I go to a Chinese restaurant. It's even better than Steak Kew, or the vegatarian version called Fah Kew.

Ok, that was pretty good! Try this one: "Mater tua tam obesa est ut cum Romae est, urbs habet octo colles"... I love trash-talking in dead languages! Man, I've gotta get a life!!

uhmmm...8 chins?

Anywho...

Yo momma so fat, when she turns around, people give her a welcome back party!

Man, I think that maybe we just hit a new low. Even for us.

Let me rephrase, your honor. The award on an AP situation is the same as the award for an OOB situation. :)

Oh yeah?

Yo momma so fat, when I drive around her house, I can see her in every window! :D

Yo momma so fat she eats Wheat Thicks.

Yo Momma's so fat that she doesn't have love handles. She has a roll bar.

Yo momma so fat she broke her leg and gravy poured out.

Yo mooma's so fat that she got stretch marks on her bathtub.

Geez - what have I started...actually my Latin one was "Your momma is so fat, when she visits town Rome has 8 hills"...pretty good, but nearly as good as JR's and Dan's...

We'll leave ya with these two:

- Yo momma's so fat, her cereal bowl has it's own lifeguard.

- Yo momma's so fat that her butt has it it's own congressman!

<pre>
#! /usr/bin/perl
%Weight = (
Maximum => 200,
Minimum => 120
);
$WeightFile = "Howbig.lst";
%AllPeople = &GetData($WeightFile);
foreach $Name (keys %AllPeople) {
print "Your $Name is so fat..." if ($AllPeople{$Name}{Weight} > $Weight{Maximum};
print "Your $Name is so skinny..." if ($AllPeople{$Name}{Weight} > $Weight{Minimum};
}
</pre>

Yo mama so fat:

her nickname is "Lardo"

when her beeper goes off, people thought she was backing up

when she step on the Weight Scales it says...'to be continued'...

when she bends over, we enter Daylight Saving Time.

she sat on a Nintendo Gamecube and it turned into a gameboy

when she went to the Zoo, Elephants began throwing peanuts at her.

small objects orbit her.

she make olympic sumo wrestlers look anerixic.

when I tell her to haul a$$, she gotta make two trips.

when she farted she launched herself into orbit.

she lost a game at Hide&Seek only cos I spotted her...behind Mount Everest.

when I had to swerve to avoid hitting her on the road I ran out of Petrol!

she could be the eighth continent.

she nearly put Safeway out of business

the only thing that's attracted to her is gravity.

her Uni graduation photo was an aerial

when she auditioned for a part in Raiders of the Lost Ark she got the part of the big Rolling Ball.

she make Jabba the Hutt look anorexic.

she sat on a dolla' and squirted out 3 quarters, 2 dimes and a nickel!

The Basketball Forum: All class, all day1

I think the biggest thing I don't like about the rule as it stands is the inconsistency. If A fouls, they keep the arrow. If A violates, they lose it?
The exceptions necessary for consistency could easily be dismissed if only they would listen to me. :)

Yo momma is so nasty the fish store paid her to leave.

:D How do you say "degenerates" in Latin? ;)

Yo momma is so nasty I called her up for phone sex, and got an ear infection.

Yo momma is like potato chips - fri-to-lay

"So fat" I could handle, but this is a little...


My (black) daughter said one of these to someone, and he came back to her, "Yea? Well, yo' mama's white!!" Wasn't much more she could say after that.

All of our momma's would be horrified...I can't believe I started this mess...where's Padgett when we need him??? :)

Uh, Tony - on what side of your car is the steering wheel?

The left side.

But it's a German car. :)

You mean other than "Yes she is"?

Her freshman year, I went to watch her play basketball, I arrived a little late for the game. I walked behind the bench, patted her shoulder and said, "Have a good game, honey" The girl sitting next to her said, "Who's that?" Jess said, "I don't know... some lady!"

Teens...you can't live with them, and you can't kill them. ;)

Nevada....We only play two halves, not 4 quarters in most high school games in MA...Some Private schools and few other leagues play 4 quarters. I keep forgatting we all have different rules...Sorry!

Only two?

A couple classics :)

Yo mamma's so fat when she puts on her raincoat people yell taxi.

Yo mamma's so fat she's got more chins than a Chinese phonebook.

Yo mamma's so fat when she sits around the house, she sits around the house.

Yo mamma's so fat she went to the beach and people started yelling "Free Willy!!"

Man, those take me back.

somehow I had a feeling you were in MA
 

I almost added unless you are playing Chuck's rules to that last post!