Been on vacation, read through the whole pick and roll thread and still unclear. This is what I think is being said. If my guy sets the screen, contact is made, and then rolls keeping contact without displacing the defender who has given up on the play, it is OK. If the defender is trying to spin around the pick and my guy rolls into his path after contact, no OK.

But now this brings on another thought. When does the pick stop being a pick and start being a post up. You see guys posting up and displacing the defender all the time. Is this action legal.

Finally, in my next game, do you think it would be wise for me to say, "hey ref, that's not a foul, he was not doing a pick and roll, that was a pick and post up"

No.

No.

After reading that thread this past week, I had one of the situations occur. Man is posting up, ball is passed from wing to corner. Man defending post tries to get out to stop the shot, post man moves to keep him sealed. Illegal screen call. For the other situations mentioned. I try to look at this way: 1) if post player is "shaping up" for position but displacing the defender, it's a foul. 2) on pick and roll plays, when the offenseive play rolls he is beating the defender to that spot and hence is entitled to it. 3) if defender is already working around the screen and the roll prevents him from getting out to his man, illegal screen. As everyone says ref the defense and let what is happening to him help you determine the call.

No it is not. Contact by an offensive player that displaces a defender that has established position is a foul, pure & simple.

Unfortunately, rough play in the post continues to be a problem. It's something that I try to be proactive about early in the game. At the first sign that post play is starting to get physical, I will usually give a firm "watch the contact" warning. My second warning is more directed "white23, blue 44, knock it off!". Well coached players will usually get the message quickly and adjust their play accordingly. Those that don't, will get a whistle and a foul, or in some cases a double foul if the excessive contact was mutually caused.



As to making a comment of the nature you described to the officials, I would strongly discourage it. Your chance of drawing an immediate technical foul is probably 50/50, depending on your attitude when you made the comment. Only the designated team captains can approach the officials, and then only to politely ask for an explanation or clarification.

For the record, the comment to the ref thing was a joke.

Some folks would say rough play continues to be a problem simply because officials hesitate to call fouls.

Why 3 warnings?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan_ref

Quote:

Some folks would say rough play continues to be a problem simply because officials hesitate to call fouls. Why 3 warnings?

And I agree - guess I should have been clearer. Illegal contact draws an immediate whistle...no warning.

What I was referring to is the typical pattern of borderline "incidental contact" that is the usual precursor to the post play actually escalating to the point of illegal contact. I'm sure most officials here have seen it & can relate.

IMHO, it's one of our responsibilities as officials to recognize it early, if possible, then try to stop the escalation when we do. I've found that a verbal warning or two BEFORE they cross the line helps by letting the players know they're getting close and giving them a chance to adjust before they do. If they heed it, great - everybody benefits. If not, then we penalize immediately when they actually cross the line.

Say what? :confused:

It's not about displacement. If the screener continues to move into the defender's path, BLOCKING him, it's a foul.

Yeah but...if the defender has "given up on the play", do they really have a path to be blocked from??? I think (if I am reading what TigerBball means) the coach has it correct - I set the screen, roll to the basket and keep contact with the defender with my butt, but the defender knows he's beaten and isn't trying to get around, we've got nothing...

Sorry but I guess I don't understand the copncept of "given up on the play." Why does he give up on the play just because there was a screen? Perhaps a better description would clarify.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TimTaylor

Quote:

Originally posted by Dan_ref Quote: Some folks would say rough play continues to be a problem simply because officials hesitate to call fouls. Why 3 warnings? And I agree - guess I should have been clearer. Illegal contact draws an immediate whistle...no warning. What I was referring to is the typical pattern of borderline "incidental contact" that is the usual precursor to the post play actually escalating to the point of illegal contact. I'm sure most officials here have seen it & can relate. IMHO, it's one of our responsibilities as officials to recognize it early, if possible, then try to stop the escalation when we do. I've found that a verbal warning or two BEFORE they cross the line helps by letting the players know they're getting close and giving them a chance to adjust before they do. If they heed it, great - everybody benefits. If not, then we penalize immediately when they actually cross the line.

Yeah, I'll do this too, although the trend these days in my area is to warn with your whistle right off the bat.

Dan -- Does all this sound familiar!?

Here is what usually happens.

A sets a good legal pick on B. Contact is made by B running into A, but usually without much force, they do not knock my guy down. So B hits the screen, before B even has a chance to make a move around the pick, A will reverse pivot. During the reverse pivot, A will lose contact with B, but then by the end of the reverse pivot, A will regain contact with B with A's backside. Now we are in a block out mode, or post up mode.

The D has switched, so B is now trying to gurad A. B now is trying to get around A in order to establish, position between A and the hoop. However A will move at this point, much like a block out, to keep B on his backside. Then when the pass is thrown. The passer aims for a spot about 5 feet infront of A leading him to the hoop. As the pass is in the air, A will release from the box-out and go receive the pass, hopefully leaving B in the dust.

It seems like all the answers have focused on the pick and not enough on how to roll legally. I still don't feel like I have a good answer. Maybe I am just a thickheaded coach, but my Mom always told me I was smart.

Nope, you are in a foul mode instead of a block out mode. Specifically a foul mode by A. A can't roll INTO the defensive player. B is always entitled to his/her established position on the floor. A can get as close to B on the roll as he/she wants to, as long as A does <b>not</b> cause any contact with B! If the official judged that the contact by A on the roll gave A an advantage on the play, then A is gonna get the foul.

Think of it as the same principle as someone blocking out on a rebound. You can get in the way, but you can't back the opposing player out or displace them from their spot on the floor.

JR, I'm not sure I'm seeing a foul as I read this play. As I see it the screen is done, A1 & B1 just happen to be standing near each other. A1 has the right to position himself to gain an advantage, even if there's incidental contact. Doesn't he?

Yep, and for sure what Tony reads into this is way different from what Rocky reads into it. My response to JR sums up how I happen to visualize this play.

I think I'm visualizing it the same way you are, Dan... unless the "roller" bangs the defender awfully hard and drives them across the key - or pins them with an arm or something stupid like that, I've got a good, legal play here...

Thank you, that clears it up from a rules stand point for me, but leads me to another question.

I have been coaching basketball for 12 years, watching for 30. I can't remember anyone ever being called for a foul for moving a guy backwards on a box out, assuming they are only using their back side, not their arms and elbows. Nor have I ever seen a post up foul called on a player who is not using his arms, but instead geting his butt into the D's legs for leverage and then backing them up.

In addition, I have never seen someone called for pinning someone on a pick and roll.

So, is this one of those things that is illegal, but in general not enforced?

I have called plenty of fouls on box outs and post ups. Have not called any on a screen and roll, you can see from this thread that there are varying opinions on that play. The concept of displacement is relatively new and is now used as the criteria for calling fouls on box outs and post ups. Also the points of emphasis have focused on cleaning up post play for the last few years so its probably getting a lot more attention.

Never? NEVER?? Come on now...usually the "arm" basketball (using arms to push and hold) is easier to catch, but I believe all competent officials are going to call fouls on box-outs and post-ups when the player is using hips/butt to shove people around...

Never, didn't stutter, never seen it for only using your backside. Now if arms or elbows came too far back, yes, but not for being lower and better positioned than your opponent and moving him away from the hoop.

I'll invite you to my next boys' varsity game, you'll NEVER say this again!

Then you've seen a lot of games where a foul was missed. :p

A push is a push, whether it's with the hands or the butt.

Well, around here, it just is not a call that is made.

In fact, many official encourage strong box outs. Many of them have told the other coach, because, no kidding here, I really don't yell at the refs, that they are not going to call a push on my guy (or as the other coach said "over the back") when their guy is not going to box him out hard.

If you are boxing out properly, you are in contact with the opponent when you drop into a lower stance with your back-end sticking out.

There is zero possibility that the opponent will be able to move forward into you, and as such, there is also almost zero possibility that they will not be slightly displaced backwards.

It's called putting them on their heels, and when you are on your heels, the only recovery is to step backwards a little bit.

You can see where I'm going with this... To me, a foul would be when a box out rams or causes the opponent to be greatly displaced. If they are back on their heels and take a step back to regain balance, their center has shifted, and you could say they have been displaced, but that's no foul to me.

That's a foul to me though. And I got the whistle! :D Whether it actually gets called or not is simply up to the official's judgement as to whether you gained an advantage when you put the other player back on their heels. The "degree of contact" is not a factor at all in the call. A slight touch on the elbow of the shooting arm can make a shot miss completely, and will get called a foul- while a fair amount of body contact by a defender may not affect the shot at all, and may be ignored. Iow, you're taking your chances with the officials if you back an opponent out while you're boxing out. Just putting that opponent back on their heels so that they can not immediately go up is certainly gaining you an advantage, as far as I'm concerned. No different than putting an arm over an opponent's shoulder so that they can't jump. Don't b*itch if you get called for it.

We must be loosing something in the descriptions. I doubt there is a difference in what we think is a foul.

Big difference. You're saying that a little butt bump that puts an opponent back on his heels isn't a foul. I'm saying that it is, but it may or may not be called, dependant on whether the official thought that it gave the bumper an advantage.

So it's a foul, but it might not give an unfair advantage? Hmmmmmm. . . :confused:

OK, lets draw one more distinction to perhaps bridge the gap. Consider boxing out the shooter after a shot when he is in a very upright position vs. boxing out a PF who is already positioning himself in a low stance to get the rebound. Do you consider those cases different at all, from a referee standpoint when observing the player being put on their heels and having to put a foot back (losing position)?

OK, lets draw one more distinction to perhaps bridge the gap. Consider boxing out the shooter after a shot when he is in a very upright position vs. boxing out a PF who is already positioning himself in a low stance to get the rebound. Do you consider those cases different at all, from a referee standpoint when observing the player being put on their heels and having to put a foot back (losing position)?


[/B][/QUOTE]No difference at all from a referee's standpoint. Both players are entitled to their spot on the floor. You are also entitled to your normal spot, and the air above it. Neither you or your opponent can <b>legally</b> move the other from their spot once it's been established. It's that simple.

Alright, then it's a foul, but I think you are being obtuse about it.

Boxing out does and should upset the positioning of the player without being a foul. That's the whole point. You can't just stand between someone and the basket without putting your body on them and expect that to be effective.

"Upsetting the positioning of the opponent" is the definition of the word "foul". Every player is entitled to any spot on the floor as long as he or she gets there legally first. Once that person you are boxing out has position, you can't legally move him. When boxing out is legal, it means a team working together to keep the opponents from legally reaching certain spots in the first place. When a coach hollers "Box out!!" and he means "push them out of the way", he's telling you to do something illegal. Period.

What Rainmaker said. If you get away with it, great. if you get called, now you know why.

Anytime a player is displaced from their position you have a foul. If a player sticks their butt into someone and backs them up it should be called.

The only time I see this called is when I see position lost, and that only occurs when 1) the guy flops 2)the guys is pushed well and visibly out of position by a sustained backward motion. Easy call. Not disupting it.


My earlier points are very clear that a proper box-out does displace/upset/move the player, but only enough to put him on his heels and make him adjust feeting and deal with leverage I have.

This is still a confusion of descriptions. No matter what anyone says about this being a foul, what I am trying to describe is not a foul and the simple fact remains that it is not called a foul in almost 100% of the thousands of refereed games I've either participated in or witnessed. Rulebook definitions won't help you here, because it sounds like you could call every box-out a foul and see how long your career as a referee lasts then.


So we are left with 1 of 2 conclusions:

1) Through a statistical "perfect storm", every game you have refereed or witnessed has been significantly different than the thousands I've played or watched.

2) we are not talking the same language, despite my best efforts at clarity.



Which is more likely?

I understand what your talking about. The verbage makes it sound different than what it is. Bascially what your describing is more; there is slight or no contact, no displacement so no foul, but it effectively takes away the ability of the player being boxed out to gather themselves to out jump the rebounder. Yes the player being boxed out is being placed at a disadvantage but is only because of the legal positioning of the player boxing out. I have no problem with this, no foul, good hard work on the kids part.

See how long my career lasts? It's lasted for 45 freaking years so far. For thousands and thousands of games. At all levels. That includes football too. I've told you why it's a foul. Personally, I really don't give a damn whether you believe me or not. If you think that your playing and watching games has made you such a great rules expert, then why are you wasting your time asking questions here anyway? You don't need us. You obviously already know everything there is to know about the rules. If you don't think it's a foul, great. Don't call it in your driveway games. And also don't bother to come here and waste our time anymore either. It's hardly worth it if you already have all the answers.

I see you've chosen option #1, that we are discussing the same mechanics and are both 100% sure that rules and statistical evidence supports our opposite viewpoints.


There was an option #2...

Why don't I help you here. I'll admit my description of the dynamics and mechanics involved was not as clear as neccessary for us to agree on what we both know is 100% correct.

I'll admit that the "backing-up" of a player is a foul, and you admit that a good block out will put two players in contact with some minor jostling of position within their shared space ...without the guying being blocking losing his position.

I didn't post to this thread asking any question, only offering my opinion of the dynamics of a block out. It's an open forum to those who aren't referees, and I reserve my right to engage you in any discussion I feel qualified to render an opinion on (my .02)

This horse is dead.

- Ryan
Indiana boy

I didn't post to this thread asking any question, only offering my opinion of the dynamics of a block out. It's an open forum to those who aren't referees, and I reserve my right to engage you in any discussion I feel qualified to render an opinion on (my .02)

- Ryan
Indiana boy


[/B][/QUOTE]And my opinion is that you aren't qualified to make comments on rules. You don't know the rules. That's my .02.

- JR
Referee boy

Ryan, we all know what you're talking about. You're simply wrong. If a box out moves, displaces, or even knocks the opponent off balance, a foul has been committed. By definition, the person boxing out didn't get to that spot first since he knocked the opponent out of it. Does it ofen go uncalled? Yes. Usually because it is determined that in spite of the contact, the rebound still ended up in the same hands as if the contact had never occured. However, in some cases, this will not be true. The foul must then be called.

I wondered if anyone would forward this opinion.

Aren't you breaking some sort of referee code by saying a foul is not regularly enforced?

I do give up though. Either we are talking about the same thing, or we are talking about a situation where the foul in the textbook that isn't often enforced. I can live with either.

QUOTE]Originally posted by ryan330i

Boxing out does and should upset the positioning of the player without being a foul. That's the whole point. You can't just stand between someone and the basket without putting your body on them and expect that to be effective.

[/QUOTE]

Ryan,
The problem with this post is basic logic. If B1 is sticking his *** out of his vertical plane and upsets A1's balance, it's a foul by definition. Boxing out that involves pushing and displacement, with intent, is lazy. The player boxing out should be able to do so without violating the rules, without "pushing" or "knocking off balance." Essentially, it's the same as setting a legal screen.
It seems to me this is a lot like holding in football. In spite of how often we think it gets called, it is simply not a good block if the blocker holds.

You probably never see this called for two reasons. First, I don't think it really happens that often at any significant level of ball. Players are too coordinated, and they're not going to get knocked off balance (or "on their heels") by slight contact that they are expecting. If it does happen, the chances of a real rebounding advantage happening at the same time are minimal given the odds of the ball going to that spot.

Bottom line, it's just not true that a good box out knocks the boxed player on his heels. No matter how many games you've watched.

As a simple coach reading this post, I would come to the conclusion that if my guy is on the outside and is getting boxed out and does not try to maintain his spot, thus getting knocked backwards, I should expect a foul to be called on the other team.

But, if my guy stay low, lean back, and hold his position, no foul would be called.

So I guess I should start telling my guys to let themselves be pushed backwards in order to get a foul called on them.

what is there to be gained by trying to hold your spot.

Ryan, maybe because we are from Indiana, we see thing different than the rest, but if refs called a box out the way this thread says they should, we would be shooting 100 FT's a game.

OK Senior members, blast away at me, I know you will, but I think the rules and the reality on this one are polar opposites.

Tigerball,
How many times do you actually see a player get knocked off balance in a game when being boxed out? I can't honestly say I've seen it, short of the "boxer" literally walking backwards. Ryan seems to be describing a box-out that isn't actually done.
And no, if your player gives up, then we have no advantage from the contact. IMO, of course.

The amount of jostling depends mostly on whether you have two post players working for position or you turn to block out the shooter (or another other more upright player).

You are arguing my descriptions against the rulebook, but I have already stated multiple times that my descriptions weren't good enough for us to communicate. Some read my descriptions and say "yea, I know what you are talking about but it isn't ususally called because of x" and some read it and say "that's a foul all the time I ref" etc.

I admit you are the first to conclude I am just pulling it out of my butt and have no experience with the dynamics of blocking people out and have solely made these comments from watching basketball. A novel conclusion, but not one I even care to respond to.

I can't stresss this enough. Fouls are not called on me for the way I block out, and fouls are not called for what appears to me to be similar blocking out methods during any of the high school, college, or pro games I watch. Ergo I'm not DOING it wrong, I'm SAYING it wrong.

You have to either accept that or not.

Players in Indiana aren't smart enough to adjust to the reffing? That's saying something...

No,no,no. I was the first to say that. You don't have any clue at all as to what the pertinent rules say, why those pertinent rules were enacted, and the philosophy used to actually call those rules. You've never read a rulebook in your life. You're basing your "opinion" on your many years of experience sitting on your a$$ in your LaZBoy watching games. Every single official that has responded to you so far in this thread has told you that "displacing/upsetting/moving" (your words, fanboy, and they couldn't be more exact) an opponent is a foul. You've also been told several times that, even though it is a foul, it may not be called all the time. The only person having a "comprehension" problem in this thread is YOU. You only seem to hear what you want to hear.

Snaqwells,

My guys do it all the time. They are taught to get their backside into the knee of the opponent, straighten his leg, and drive him backwards.

In a game, a good box out from one of my guys will gain 3 to 6 inches of space under the hoop. So we are displacing.

The only time my guys get called for a pushing foul is when they get their arms too far back, or use their forearm.

Speaking from the coaching community here, I don't know of a single coach that wants his player to box out by simply positiioning helmself between the opponent and the hoop with only minor contact or none at all. I would love to play against that team, our off. reb would be our main play.

PS

We probably only execute 6-8 good box outs a game.

Lost in Translation
 

I reread every post and you didn’t say it first. You said in many ways that I know nothing about the rules, however that is not the same as implying I don’t play basketball or know how to block someone out.


True. Any statements I have made in the verbiage of “That’s not a foul” aren’t referring to rulebook, but to how games are called, which you and others acknowledge is not in perfect alignment.


False. I read the official rules of Bocce ball just last summer. Despite never having read an official basketball rulebook, I am quite clear what the rules of the game are, enough to play a game with enjoyment.


False. I have played basketball most of my life and enjoy it still (at 30). I was never allowed to play football, and didn’t enjoy baseball. I played on school teams up to J-V, and then transferred to a much larger high school. In college I played on my fraternity’s team in Intramurals. I have also played in various church leagues, and Gus Macker style tournaments. Currently I play twice weekly with friends and with a group at work (no refs obviously)

I dislike your rude characterizations. It diminishes your credibility and integrity. I thought referees were better than normal at leaving personal stuff aside in disputes? I guess not. Well then, your mom is fat, if not dead, and you are old.


To which I have repeatedly replied “I’ll submit to multiple ruling that what I am describing must be a foul, but that means I am not describing it properly”

Hmm… Do I even care what the rulebook says about “it”, if “it” is not called in accordance with the rulebook? No.

Never mind the fact that I have not agreed as to the definition of what “it” is.

I comprehend fine. Let me distill my perspective down to a simple little story. Now the referee in this story does not represent one particular person, but really just my experience:

Me: To Thing-a-ma-jig properly, you do this.
Ref: That is a foul.
Me: When I thing-a-ma-jig, I don’t get called, nor do I see it called.
Ref: That is a foul.
Me: OK, then I must be describing what happens wrongly because it isn’t called.
Ref: You described it wrong, and it is a foul.
Me: Wait, what I described…improperly, or what I’m trying to describe is a foul?
Ref: Yes.
Ref: And you described it improperly because you don’t understand basketball rules.
Ref: And you are a lazy a$$ and have never touched a basketball.
Me: Well, whatever. I know how to block out and it’s never called a foul, and there is contact. I’m losing something in the translation. And you are old.
Ref: It’s not called all the time.
Me: !?
Ref: You don’t comprehend.



I guess not.

[Edited by ryan330i on Apr 16th, 2004 at 08:51 PM]

Just remember - there's a huge difference between a description of an action on here or on the sidelines and what we actually see.

Show us a video, then we'll be able to easily discuss whether it is or isn't a foul.

Pretty much says it all. Another driveway warrior.

Re: Lost in Translation
 

Knowing the rules well enough to enjoy playing the game is one thing. Getting paid to officiate the game is quite another - there's no way for you to know this but some of the folks participating in this tiresome discussion got further than officiating small school JV HS ball. Way further. Where I come from we have a word for an uninformed person who stubbornly refuses to take advice from an expert.

Jerk.

Yes, a picture is worth a thousand words in this case. I'll agree to that.

Re: Re: Lost in Translation
 

I have browsed enough threads to recognize that there are officials here that referee up to Div I college. I haven't seen any references to pro ball, but I assume that is entirely possible.

I have not and would not pretend to offer advice on the rules of basketball, and only in comparison to referees on this board, do lack knowledge in the rules of basketball. That makes me uninformed on a rules question, but basketball is more than just rules. There is no rule for proper jump shot technique, and no rule describes how to best block someone out.

Another post I found interesting was how a player declined to answer a question of "do you understand?" to the referee and that thread was a subjective one, in which no rule in the book could answer.


The advice I was given was that the dynamics of what I was describing would be a foul. I accepted that advice wholly with the simple disclaimer that I wasn't accurately explaining what I though proper block out technique was, and if I could, we wouldn't be disagreeing, because obviously proper block out technique doesn't result in fouls, in my experience.

Beyond that, things basically descended into name calling.

To that, I'm not entirely sure you are implying or expressing I am a jerk, but if so, more power to you. If not, I took it that way wrongly.

Does it boost your ego to categorize everyone who has a different perspective into convenient categories like "driveway warriors" or "fanboys"?

It actually hurts my feelings. I love the game of basketball and consider myself moderately knowledgeable in its basic rules and more than proficient at playing it.

I don't even have any idea what a fanboy is in this context..I certainly don't look up to you or referees in any way, nor did I come here to criticize referees about my favorite team's latest loss.

It was a new and interesting perspective on the game of basketball. Unfortunately, my experience here with referees turned out much like the stereotypes for referees: Very sensitive to their turf, stubborn, confident, and perhaps worst of all, some tended to make things personal.

This is your sandbox, being a basketball officiating forum, and while I will continue to lurk (because it’s fascinating material), consider this, nearly my first thread, to be the last thread to post in.*

*I will, however, continue to defend myself, if you continue to hurl barbs at me --although I probably won't respect myself in the morning for it.

Hey Ryan - cool your jets...
 

I'll try to answer a few points from a coaches perspective - been doing it for 18 years.

I believe what all the officials here are trying to say is that displacement is a foul. In a box-out, by definition, there is lots of incidental and intentional contact taking place while jockeying for position on the board. And there is probably lots of incidental displacement and sometimes subtle displacement taking place at the same time. Most times you won't get called for the foul, especially if it isn't <u>obvious</u> just how much space or advantage is gained during the physical fight for position.

Any official worth their salt, and the overwhelming majority who post here are, will look for "advantage/disadvantage" and "call the obvious."

Let's agree on an <u>exaggerated</u> example - on a rebound attempt, Shaq boxes-out his opponent, and then proceeds to drive him up the paint 10 or more feet to the free throw line. You gonna tell me this is OK? Of course not. The displacement is obvious <b><u>and</b></u> and he's gained an enormous advantage, pushing his opponent out of the probable rebounding area. FOUL.

Do most coaches teach their players to sit on the opponents knee and force them straight up or even just a teeny bit back on the box-out? Sure. Does it get called? Most of the time, no. But sometimes, when it's obvious, you'll get a whistle. As a coach I can accept it just like I can accept a 3-second call because I'm pushing my kids to perform at the very limit - sometimes we go over that boundary line. Fact is, in basketball, far less gets called than could have been when compared with definitions in the rule book. This is a good thing.

Judgement and discretion are just as important to the game as is a thorough understanding of the rules. Read more threads about game presence versus rules knowledge for officiating effectively. Read more threads about advantage/disadvantage. While your at it read the rules book - NFHS NCAA & NBA, and the officials manuals and case books too - you might appreciate how much more you can learn about the game than some of your playing participation and observation have given you so far. Hang around and learn some more about this great game.

I DON'T WANNA COOL MY JETS!!!!
 

A loooong time ago when my younger son was 2 or 3 or so he has getting cranky about some silly thing so I told him to cool his jets. Man did that set him off! He immediately started crying, stamping his feet and screamed "I DON"T WANNA COOL MY JETS!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!"

And no, I didn't T him up for USC, I just hugged him until he calmed down. Miraculously he's yet to hold up a gas station or become an ax murderer. As far as I know.

Thanks for jarring that memory loose for me! :)

Good day fellow officials. Read through this entire thread. Ryan - that last post - are you all there? You seem to be losing it. Suggest you DO go play bocce and leave basektball to us. Thank you.