Newspaper editorial on assault in Montana

[mick]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
everyone reads "the rest of the story" straight from the Helena Paper:

"Prosecutor considering charges over fight"

By CAROLYNN BRIGHT - IR Staff Writer - 03/23/04

Thanks, Indy.

[cford]

Article 1

Article 2

These are two articles that have different opinions or views of what took place, but I think one point that needs to be seen here is that parents or biased fans should not be scorekeepers. Most of the time there are not problems but I have definitely had my fair share of scorekeepers (parents) that complain about calls made against their team or kid. This is the last thing that I need to worry about when I go to discuss the number of fouls or to remind them when to stop the clock. I know that this saves the tournament money by not having to pay for scorekeepers but an alternative would be to require a parent from the game before or after their kids game to keep score. It's easier to ignore confrontation from fans in the stands but almost impossible to ignore it when it's coming from part of the scorekeeping crew.

This referee even if he did shove the scorekeeper had to do it because he was unable to avoid confrontation while trying to perform his duties. I don't know exactly what happened b/c I wasn't there but this might not have occured if there were neutral scorekeepers!

[wizard]

Originally posted by cford
I don't know exactly what happened b/c I wasn't there but this might not have occured if there were neutral scorekeepers!

I wasn't there either, so I don't know what really happened as well. But when you find a neutral scorekeeper for grade school basketball, let me know!

[cford]

Here's something that a reader wrote in response to the Article

Response:

Just a game

We have all read about the ugly incident at a basketball game involving fifth graders. While the fight itself was deplorable, I would ask whether some of you haven't engaged in loudly disagreeing with the referee's calls at some local youth sporting event. Is it really morally acceptable to loudly complain in public about the performance of another person? Let's face it; most of these people are volunteers. Just because they make a mistake, that doesn't give any of us the right to berate them. Perhaps you secretly agree with the outcry because you think the official made a mistake? But, are we better trained, are we closer to the action or are we more objective? The answer is likely no, yet the barrage of mean spirited (and often crude or vulgar) complaints continues unabated. By our silence we seem to condone this shabby treatment. Think about the message you want our children to learn from sports the next time you or your neighbor publicly complains about a decision of the official and do the right thing. Swallow your frustration and remember, it's just a game and it's the kids' game, not yours.

Scott Lockwood

I'm glad to see people that are not officials speak out about it or even see this view point (even if it's only 1% of the population)

[Jimgolf]

"According to (Police Chief) McGee, the referee said he was afraid the scorekeeper was going to assault him, so he took the pre-emptive measure of shoving the scorekeeper.

The scorekeeper allegedly responded by punching the referee."

Here we are second guessing the police when we don't have all the facts and don't know the rule book (Montana Criminal Code). I guess we've become police fanboys.

[Rich]

Perhaps.

But I'd like to see law enforcement step it up in general.

One of the most common things I hear is -- there are already laws on the books.

Yet fans think they have the right to come to my car and scream and swear at me after a baseball game while I'm undressing in the parking lot.

This is assault. When I suggested that once to a policeman and asked him to get rid of these idiots, I was laughed at. I then asked him what would happen if someone came up and screamed and swore at him after he got done directing traffic and told him how horrible he was. The officer told me that person would be arrested.

What's the difference?

[cford]

Originally posted by Jimgolf
"According to (Police Chief) McGee, the referee said he was afraid the scorekeeper was going to assault him, so he took the pre-emptive measure of shoving the scorekeeper.

The scorekeeper allegedly responded by punching the referee."

Here we are second guessing the police when we don't have all the facts and don't know the rule book (Montana Criminal Code). I guess we've become police fanboys.

Who's second guessing the police?

[cford]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser
Perhaps.

But I'd like to see law enforcement step it up in general.

One of the most common things I hear is -- there are already laws on the books.

Yet fans think they have the right to come to my car and scream and swear at me after a baseball game while I'm undressing in the parking lot.

This is assault. When I suggested that once to a policeman and asked him to get rid of these idiots, I was laughed at. I then asked him what would happen if someone came up and screamed and swore at him after he got done directing traffic and told him how horrible he was. The officer told me that person would be arrested.

What's the difference?

I agree, it's become accepted to yell & scream at officials. The thing I hate worse is that it is usually around young kids and they are learning that this is accepted behavior. But if they acted the same way by yelling and screaming at a teacher for something they disagreed with the parent would tell them that this is not acceptable.

The difference is the police has arrest powers, and we don't. Ya gotta be careful around cops, because you can get arrested for swearing at them now. A little thing called disturbing the peace. It's amazing what little you can do around a cop and end up behind bars nowadays. But it happens to anyone else, the cops will just take a report and let the prosecutors decide if an arrest is necessary.

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by Ref Ump Welsch
The difference is the police has arrest powers, and we don't. Ya gotta be careful around cops, because you can get arrested for swearing at them now. A little thing called disturbing the peace. It's amazing what little you can do around a cop and end up behind bars nowadays. But it happens to anyone else, the cops will just take a report and let the prosecutors decide if an arrest is necessary.

Tha may be true in some jurisdictions, but probably not in most. Under Oregon law, for example, the only real difference between a commissioned police officer and a private citizen is that a private citizen can not serve a warrant. A citizen can in fact make a citizen's arrest - of course if they due so without reasonable justification they can be sued for false arrest and held liable, just like the police. A police officer presented with a correctly executed declaration of a citizen arrest must take the specified suspect into custody.

[ref18]

Why are you refereeing if you can't take sh*t from parents. Don't worry about what they're saying, if they threaten you report it. A parent who threatened one of our referees was recently fined $300 by the league. If its the scorekeeper, boot him/her. At the beginning of every game, my partner will go through his team lecture with the table officials. If they don't play into that team, we find someone else, usually someone from the visiting team.

But another thing that's amazing, is that parants can do whatever they want to, but we are scrutenized so badly. I'm facing a complaint because when I called the 5th foul on a player I apparantly said "That's 5 your gone" and the mother (***'t coach) thinks that i didn't like her kid. She fails to understand that I say that everytime someone gets fould out. ALthough in this case, i don't think i said anything because i was the calling official. My point, if we're going to be carved apart for one tiny mistake, then every parent who warrants it should be charged no questions asked.

[Adam]

ref18, perhaps a more subtle approach is called for here. Simply saying, "That's 5" is generally enough to a player and coach. They know what it means.
That said, it sounds like Mommy needs to quit coaching if she can't realize her daughter is in 5th grade.

[Tim C]

"A parent who threatened one of our referees was recently fined $300 by the league."

Could you explain how a "league" can fine a parent.

What law would that fall under?

Thanks,

Tee

[BBall_Junkie]

Originally posted by ref18
I called the 5th foul on a player I apparantly said "That's 5 your gone"

Not that it makes the complaint against you right, but you might want to limit your verbage which will limit what people can misinterpret. What I say to a player and/or coach is "That's Five". 99.9% understand that that means they are out of the game. Not much they can read into that!

Just a suggestion FWIW!

[Edited by BBall_Junkie on Apr 8th, 2004 at 04:29 PM]

[ref18]

Ya, after this incident, i have to change what i say.

I realize how it might be felt that this statement reflected bias on my part, especially when I called the majority of the kids 5 fouls.

The only problem is the game was a week ago, and the complaint came in last night, and i can't remeber if i said this or not. I remember calling the foul (a hold), I remember T'ing up the assistant coach (he should've been the head coach, he was the most experienced on the bench), but I don't remeber if i said this or anything to the player on his 5th.