Just wanted to continue the discusion on a previous post about the difference JV and 9th grade games. Some of you said that in your area it takes 3to4 years before you get your first JV assignment, whereas I did varsity my 2nd year. Where I live it's pretty common for an official to start getting varsity games by the end of their 2nd year.

Granted, that is probably rushing things a bit, but waiting 3yrs for a JV game also seems extreme. Seems to me that you could be hamstringing some good officials by holding them back.

I guess my question is, for you people who live those areas, whats the rationale for waiting so long and do you agree?

I am not in those areas but....
 

I bet that is why we have many problems with many not sticking around. Those areas are not allowing the cream to rise to the top, they are making arbitrary rules and limits on what some can do. But that is my opinion.

Normally, our younger guys work JV and middles school ball. I may be several years before they move up to varsity. But the cream usually rises to the top. As far as holding people back, some new officials grasp rules and mechanics very quickly. But the experience isn't there. That only comes with time.

I've seen some of the guys working JV ball who think they should be working varsity when they probably should still be working middle school. What do I see? I see officials who...

...do not understand that a player must control the ball in order to travel.
...do not understand the difference in a fumble and a dribble.
...do not police shirt tails and shorts.
...have sloppy mechanics.
...call 3 seconds a half dozen times a game.
...do not call palming and carrying the ball.

Those are just a few things that come to mind. These are items that we talk about in clinics constantly, yet it doesn't seem to sink in. We continue to work with these but some just don't grasp an understanding of when to blow and when not to blow.

Many who quit after a couple of years don't have what it takes to become a quality official. I'm sure there are situations where injustices occur. The cream should rise to the top. Our association is not in a position to lose good officials. But there are a lot of guys who have been around several years who just aren't improving. Do they desire to work middle school games the rest of their life?

I am in my second year. I know who was in first, second and third year last year, and I worked with many of them. I've also worked with quite a few "Varsity" officials -- I've worked a lot!! What it looks like to me is that the reason it takes so long for people to move up around here is that there is a LOT of competition for the higher levels. Once a person gets to that level, they stay for a while, and the number of folks who work Varsity games is quite large. So there is no rush to move people up.

On the other hand, people who work hard and learn fast can move up if they have any of the following assets: being female, having political connections, or getting really good really fast.

There is one woman (me!) in our second year class who will probably be doing some JV before the end of the year. I will probably get a few varsity games next year, and a full varsity schedule the year after. This is not because I am great but because I am good enough and female. There is a guy in our class who just seems to have the natural knack and has quite a bit of JV this year and will probably do varsity nest year. He is really very good, and can compete with the best veterans. Probably no one else will be assigned JV from our class until next year or the year after.

I don't have a problem with the early end of this arrangement. I do have a problem with the way people stay at the varsity level regardless how many skills have "slipped". I've worked with and observed a number of veterans who don't know the rules, or can't keep up with the ball, or have very sloppy mechanics, or other problems that would keep someone in the beginning from rising to that level. (Not you, Mark!)

Frankly, I wouldn't want to do a varsity game, even now. I"m just not ready, and can't imagine feeling ready until I've done another 100 games or so. Those of you who have done varsity in your second or third year, how does it feel?

Rainmaker, you better get ready. I am finding that if anyone moves up too quickly it is woman. There is such a demand to have woman calling girls games that they will often have second year female officials calling those games. I was extremely jelous until I learned that rule.

Me doing varsity games in my 2nd year was more a product of a lack of quality officials in my area than anything else. Here, the entry level is JV. In 2-3 years, people are usually considered "ready" for varsity. One reason I think there is a lack of officials here is the *HORRIBLE* pay. People, one, just don't take the time to improve themselves, or two, just leave officiating completely.

All the "good" referees move into JUCO and higher pretty quickly. What I'm trying to get across is here, the better officials move out of HS and into college quicker than in other parts of the country.

As for doing a varsity game my 2nd year, in the offseason I went to camp and REALLY made an effort to improve myself. I can't help my lack of experience, but I can make sure I know the rules.

One of our contracts won the boys state title. I called a regular season game between them and their eventual finals opponent. I was pretty nervous before the game! By the end of the game, the home team was down by 3 with about 6 seconds remaining. They inbounded the ball and pushed it up the court quickly. (I was the trail official) Their best shooter put up a shot that appeared to be a 3 pointer as the clock expired. He got the shot off in time, but from my angle, I knew that his toe was on the line. At that moment, time seemed to stand still and I was praying that it didn't go in. I knew what the consequences could be! Fortunately, he missed the shot! But, they went on to beat that same team for the state title.

This is a state and regional thang.
 

Every state, every region is different. It depends on the way officials get games and who makes those decisions. In most of the state of Illinois games are given out by ADs and each AD as their own criteria for hiring officials. In the Chicago areas and larger areas like Peoria, Springfield, assignors usually do the work of getting official. Even the assignors look for different things.

I know of one assignor that has a website and according to him, you must start out at the freshman level in his conferences and slowly move up until you get evaluations that allow you to move up to the JV games, then the non-conference games and then the varsity. This process alone could take 4 years to get varsity games in his conference. Now, it does not appear that he makes any distiction in state ranking or previous years of experience.

Now I know of other assignors that if you are good, they will put you wherever you are availible to them, and that could mean varsity games.

So my suggestion, ask a lot of questions of officials, officials association, ADs and anyone that might have direct knowledge of who officiates games in your state and/or region. Do not just ask one person or one official ask several. Better yet ask those that either make the decisions or the officials that are at the level you want to be at. Sometimes asking the wrong people can take you in the wrong direction so ask the people that are at the level or making the decisions at the level you want to be at. If that is varsity ask varsity officials and varsity assignnors or ADs.

Tim -- I'm dancin' as fast as I can! And I have a good mentor who helps a lot. But I did make a few small mistakes in my last evaluation, so that I wouldn't get any varsity this year. I hope after a summer of AAU and camp, I'll feel ready to tackle anything...


juulie

Moving ahead
 

The only final evaluator is the" GAME". My definition of the game is the Players, The Coaches ,The Fans and your Fellow Officials. If you try a higher level and the "Game' accepts you then you belong there. If you get evaluated on a one time basis by some so-called Elite official who says you are now ready to go to the next level and after a few games its obvious that the "Game" does not accept you at that level then you shouldn't be there. The "Game' will be very critical at first but if you can or should hang in there and you survive the initial few games then you normally have arrived. I have evaluated officials for years and have found that one or two looks is never enough. The "Game", which sees you night after night, is the only accurate evaluator. If you find that you are having trouble night after night at one level then chances are you have been evaluated by the "Game' at that level and should move yourself down for more seasoning before the "Game " moves you down. Pretty Philosophical EH ??? Think about it!
Pistol

Question for Joe D1
 

The measure of yourself as an official is what would be your call had the ball gone in and why were you so concerned???
Pistol

Of course, I would have called that shot a 2 pointer if it had gone in. Any official with any credibility whatsoever would have done the same.

There was really no concern - I was just joking. But you do have to admit, it would have been an interesting walk (or shall we say run) to the locker room.

JoeD1 on the 2 Pt buzzer beater
 

Good for you, I wouldn't have expected anything less-Remember ,when you are in that situation again give a very STRONG low 2 point indicator to everyone in the place that you saw the foot touching the line and then sell the 2 points when it goes in!!! Be proud of your call and don't run off the floor -that will only give the impression that you might have been unsure-Be strong!!
Pistol

Re: JoeD1 on the 2 Pt buzzer beater
 

I disagree with you, Peter. Running off the floor has nothing to do with whether you're proud of the call or not. It's simply a good preventative officiating practice. When the final horn sounds, get your butt off that floor and into the locker room. There's no reason to wait around. Nothing good can happen on that floor after the game is over with. If you look for trouble, you'll find it.

Running off The Floor
 

Thats really too bad- Having reffed FIBA rules primarily over the past 25 years we could never do that as the game was not over until the scorebook was signed. Never found the need to run away and never ran into any trouble. Oh well,I quess life is easier up here.
Pistol

It can depend.
 

A lot of this depends on the type of game management you have, the type of game you do, and the score of that game. For the most part you do not want to wait around. But if you have a blowout and things are relatively calm, you might not need to run off the court. A brisk walk might be in order, but no need to run. But if you have the biggest rivals that played each other and one team went out to humiliate the other, you might not want to stick around. But you have to read the situation and decide for yourself. But getting off quickly should be your main goal, do not stick around to shake hands and give autographys, that is for sure.

Peter, NF and NCAA rules both state that the game is over when we leave the visual confines of the floor. Even if we sign the book, the game is not over until we leave. So to get off the floor as quickly as possible is not just for our sake but for the sake of the game. The winner cannot official celibrate until we officially leave.:-) BTW, I have never signed a book after the horn. I always start the game by signing the book at the 10 minute mark.

Re: It can depend.
 

But Rut, when they ask me to sign the game ball, they are so sweet and sincere! Do I have to say no!?!?

And the fan that wins the raffle for the ref-autographed ball is always complimentary and courteous, too. I hate to disappoint them!

Is this a new one this year? I thought game ended upon approval, and leaving was construed as a form of approval.

Re: That was pretty funny.
 

As a commissioner I find it interesting that "the" subject among non-varsity officials is the "plot" by varsity officials to keep them away from varsity action. I am the commissioner for 15 high schools and working at the varsity level depends on your ability, your attitude, and taking advantage of an opportunity when given one. Male - female makes no difference to me. I currently assign approximately 20 women to varsity games. Of these 20, 3 (all under 30 years old)also work boy's varsity. Of these 3, 1 (age 27 - but 9 years of experience and the first woman in our state to work a State Championship game) works any varsity game I have. Finally, and young officials do not like to hear this, experience is a huge factor in assigning. Getting better every time out is what is important, along with a great attitude. e.g. after working your sub-varsity game do you go home or do you watch the varsity game?

An editorial change was made this year to reflect the true desire of the Committee. The jurisdiction of the officials' is terminated AND the final score has been approved when the referee leaves the visual confines of the playing area. A question on last year's Part 1 exam made the Committe realize that, the way the rule was worded, the jurisdiction actually ended when the score was approved, even if the officials were still on the floor.

Incidentally, in NC, we sign the book before the game.

I've had partners tell me to sign the book before the game, but I feel uncomfortable with that. Does my signature give my stamp of approval to the book? If I sign before hand, am I certifying what isn't even there yet? Or just indicating that in fact it was me that worked?

End of Game Mechanics
 

Hey guys,
I never thought you ever had to sign the book in NCAA rules. What's the point of signing anything prior to the contest?- In FIBA your signature approved the final score and the game was not officially over until the ref signed it -The point I tried to make is that I can't see why the officials have to run off as soon as the buzzer sounds-I think the should leave in the same way as they arrived -Together and in a Dignified manner. I have seen D1 officials run off in three different directions following a game and it really makes them look like they are not too happy with how they performed and they better get while the getting is good. Do they really think they have done that poorly in EVERY game?? Are the officials instructed to run off in other sports??-I have officiated half a dozen different sports and cannot recall this ever happening Except in Basketball and only in the past 10 years.
In my opinion it makes the officials appear weak.
Pistol

Re: End of Game Mechanics
 

I really do not see your point. Why would you want to stick around? Especially in basketball, you might have a couple thousand people angry with you. You want to stick around so they can confront you or attack you? I know in football we do not stick around very long, many times we run off the field in that sport too. It is much easier to get into some kind of confrontation when you are getting off the court slowly. The point is, do not give them a chance.

You're not certifying anything Juulie. You're just indicating who the officials are who work the game.

In NC, we are required by the NCHSAA to write the names of the officials who working the game in both team's scorebooks. If we don't, it's a $25 fine.

Re: End of Game Mechanics
 

You make it sound like we're running off the floor like three chickens with our heads chopped off. That's not the case. You can leave the floor in a dignified manner without taking a stroll in the park.

Most officials work high school ball, not NCAA ball. In my post to Juulie, you can read that we are required to indicate in each scorebook that's at the table, the names of the officials who are working the game. We don't have to certify the game in writing. Does FIBA not trust the coaches and administrators to properly report the results of the game? Why is it necessary to sign a book and say this is what happened?

Our state association also requires the schools to provide security for all varsity soccer, football and basketball officials when they leave the field. We are to get our butts off the field and out of possible harm's way as oon as possible. Perhaps things are much more cozy up north. But down here, it's a sign of the times that we live in. There are too many crazies in the world to risk a confronatation over a ballgame.

Happy New Year, Peter!

Peter, I don't know if things are different up there in B.C. but here things can get really bad really quick.

About two weeks ago I was running the clock at a local varsity game. This two schools are big rivals so the gym was packed. At the end of the 4th home team down by 2 with 6sec remaining they inbound the ball and throw up a quick three, he misses but the ball hits the back iron and bounces straight up,when the ball comes down one of the home players tips the ball in just as the buzzer went off. The officials waved off the shot and hurried out the door, good thing they did because as soon as they ranout the door abouta dozen partly full coke bottles came flying onto the court. Now imagine what would have happened if they had to sign the book after the game!!

(by the way, looked like a great call)

Leaving the floor mechanic
 

I quess things are verry different up here-Thank God!!! In close games we always verify that the score is correct before we leave-if it isn't we may have to play an OT- thats precisely why the ref is supposed to check- you can't correct it once you have left the floor according to NCAA rules. On wide spread scores the requirement is far less and a simple thumbs up to the scorer is usually all thats required and you can leave much quicker. If things are as bad as most of you indicate down south then I do agree with your procedure but the rules should be changed so that you are not held responsible for approving the final score.

Hey man.........
 

this is Basketball, not Junior Hockey. You will get killed doing that in a basketball game.

What rules do you go under up there, because I know of no rule that states you sign the book afterwards to approve the score.

In close games, we almost always have a T.O. in the last minute. This is a good place to check the books so that when the game finishes and you see 71-70, you can get out of dodge.

Jrutledge
 

Hey Man,
Ifully realize that in NCAA you don't have to sign the book to approve the score-but, the ref still has to check that its right before he leaves the floor. What would happen if there was a correctable error noticed after the final buzzer that when corrected could result inOT? If the ref had already run off the floor the game score would be approved by rule and the team that couldn't get the error corrected would be jobbed and the ref would have his name up in lights- I actually saw this happen many years ago and the ref concerned is still infamous.

Tim
Your idea sounds reasonable to me but make sure you don't miss any scoring chances in those last few minutes- like correctable errors that could come back to haunt you. This has been a great discussion and if nothing else I hope it really makes all of us aware of the possible ramifications that could occur at the end of a game if we don't fulfill all our obligations as Ref.I think enough said on this topic.

End Game Mechanics
 

Hi Everyone,
I just found a memo dated Jan 14 2000 from Hank Nichols to all D1 D11 D111 officials that states para 4c "officials are reminded that when a game ends with a margin of three points or less they should not leave the court without conferring with each other and the scorer's table"- I guess that answers the question once and for all.

Re: Peter, Peter, Peter.....
 

I think you are looking for things to find to go wrong with the situation. That is not going to happen that often and if it does, I do believe that would be the scorekeepers problem at that point. If they do not indicate that there is some kind of problem, I am not going to go looking for one. It is the responsibility of both teams to have a scorekeeper so that they can check to see if there are any problems and look out for their individual interests. Unless I see something, I am going to assume that there is a problem unless they tell me. It is not my problem if it is wrong and no one says anything. I only know what I see on the scoreboard (and that does not mean everything) and what the scorekeepers are saying.

Check out Nichols Bulletin
 

Rut Rut Rut
Go to Bob Jenkins Post re: NCAA Rule Change- Then go to his suggested web site- click on Men's & Women's Officiating Bulletins Then click on the Jan 2000 Bulletin and read para 4c very slowly so you get it-Then get back to everyone
Hank Nichols is the final say in NCAA isn't he???

Re: A different animal.
 

Peter, I think you need to understand something, most of us are not NCAA officials. I personally and I am sure that the others are not talking about NCAA games. Now, the reason NCAA means nothing in this argument, because like other rules compared to NF rules, they are totally different. See, NCAA teams have money for security to protect fans from confronting officials and there is probably action they can better take against those that do. I only do NF games (or high school) at this point and that is not mandated in NF rules. Our rulebook says that the score is approved when the officials leave the visual confinds of the court. And so we are not going to stick around to give approval to the table any more than what is stated by the rules of the NF.

And Peter, I do not think that Nicholls is over the women's game, he is only over the men's. And if you know anything about NCAA basketball, each has it's own rules and mechanics. And many officials that do one, do not do the other at least at the D1 level. Now the other levels, I am not sure about, but I do not that it is not common to see someone do both.

Hi Rut ,
I realize Nichols only supervises the NCAA Men- I also know that the Ladies rules are different. I began my career in 1960 trained by U.S. clinicians from Maryland under the IAABO organization which I was a member of for over 20 years. Iam sorry that I didn't realize that I have been talking with NF officials. I have never reffed those rules. However if any of you want to progress to the higher levels you will have to follow the dictates of people in Nichols position so you might as well pay attention to him now.
Have a productive New Year
YIBB

No.
 

That would be fine and dandy if we were under the same rules. There is a big separation between NCAA mechanics, rules and practices compared to NF mechanics, rules and practices. We are only allowed to really follow Nichols to a point, because this year the National Federation has made it a point of emphisis to use only NF mechanics. Even in our state officials were told to only use these NF mechanics because it might go against us for playoff consideration.

Having said all that, I would still never recommend that an official in the United States of America, to stick around and go back to the table. If I had used your logic in a JV Tournament game I did this past week, I would have had to fight a coach. Because he was not happy with a call I made and tried to tell me about it after I was almost off the court. Granted, I was not worried about my safety or anything like that, but why put myself in a situation that nothing was going to change as a result of what he said. And the confrontation might have had me say something that could have been easily misinterpreted and me writing him up. And then the state would have asked me, "why in the world did you stick around" like my assignor would have said too.

Rut
Good Luck in all your future endeavours!