pete's post: block vs charge

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Billy
DO NOT look for the rule on screens to be equivalent to the rule for a ball handler. This is a huge mistake. So take the rule for an offensive player with the ball by itself (not in comparison to another unrelated rule), and see who gets the advantage most of the time. I would argue that it is the offensive player who has the advantage.

Thanks for the help, HC. What you said is great.

[Billy]

"I would argue that it is the offensive player who has the advantage."

I agree to an extent: basketball is one of the few sports where you never see shutouts ;-). But from a practical and physical standpoint screens and charges (taken by seconday defenders) are VERY similar. You are setting up in a stationary position to stop a moving player. In both cases
the focus of that moving player is elsewhere. For whatever reason this call has evolved over time and the defender is given more leeway these days to slide after the shooter has commited. There are more flops. You even see players flopping in unofficiated pickup games!

"DO NOT look for the rule on screens to be equivalent to the rule for a ball handler."

I'm not saying they are "equivalent", but they are, from a
physics standpoint, similar. The rules should also be more similar. Question: how would Dr. J do these days? The evolution is clear: Labron's and Artest's bang 'em first wider bodies are needed for the way the game is called these days.

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Billy
DO NOT look for the rule on screens to be equivalent to the rule for a ball handler. This is a huge mistake. So take the rule for an offensive player with the ball by itself (not in comparison to another unrelated rule), and see who gets the advantage most of the time. I would argue that it is the offensive player who has the advantage.

The defensive player has all sorts of criteria they must meet to draw a foul. Offensive players with the ball are given almost free license to initate contact with a defender who hasn't established legal guarding position.

And the airborn rule doesn't even have to exist, as rainmaker points out. the rule could be that you have to be sure you will have a landing spot when you take off, and are responsible for contact if the defender is moving to the spot and will clearly get there before you launch. You see it all the time at the highest levels where the defender is clearly trying to take the charge and the offensive player launches at him knowing he will get a block. I agree with juulie, this favors the offense by far.

[Hawks Coach]

As a coach, I completely disagree with your conclusion that the ballhandler's attention is not supposed to be on help defense. And that is really what we are talking about on the off-ball defender stepping in and taking a charge. I am going through weekly classroom sessions with my team right now, discussing principles of offense and defense. One of the fundamental principles of offense is dribble penetration. And one of the basic principles of dribble penetration is to anticipate and see the help defense.

I reinforce the need for awareness on the part of the dribbler by showing situations where players draw charges, situations where players commit to dribbling into somewhere they can't get out of, etc., as well as showing situations where the shooter recognizes the help and pulls up, or sees the help and dishes (Diana Taurasi's no-look pass from the other night is one example I will use this week).

On the other hand, the defender may be conscious of screens (and may be alerted by the screeners defender as well). But all defenders have two key primary responsibilities for awareness - man and ball. Every coach I have ever talked to about defense stresses these two fundamentals first and foremost. Screener is a third, but man and ball come first.

Therefore, a defender that doesn't see a screen may still be following two fundamental defensive principles. But if a ball handler can't see the help defender, they shouldn't be driving because the most important thing a driver can see is the help defense. They already know where the basket is and they know where their own defendr is. Help is the only thing that matters.

So no, screens and help defense against dribble penetration aren't the same and never will be. Coaches know it and the writers of the rules know it. If you have a different opinion, I believe you are in the minority.

[Billy]

>So no, screens and help defense against dribble penetration aren't the same and never will be.

I said:
"I'm not saying they are "equivalent", but they are, from a
physics standpoint, similar."

>I completely disagree with your conclusion that the ballhandler's attention is not supposed to be on help defense.

I said:
His "focus" isn't on the secondary defender. Of course he
should be aware of (or as you say attentive to) help defense, but again the point is defensive movement after he's committed to leave the ground.

AND YES! You should coach your players to play as best they can to the way the game is called and to the rules the way they are. That doesn't make the rules right or written in stone. Indeed, these calls have evolved over the years to the way they are called now. For the better? Some say no.
It's clear defense plays the body more than the ball these days. If you like football, you love it. Clearly folks in
middle America like it. Can you remember a more gruesome season than this year's big ten? Those games were agonizing to watch, painful to play in, and excruciating to officiate.

>Diana Taurasi's no-look pass...

Good luck teaching that ;-) She's my girl! I grew up in Old Saybrook circa the 1950's and 1960's when UConn would get beat by Yale. And Okafor! Shades of young Bill Russell: no flopping here, that guy DOES play the ball...how refreshing
the us in the "minority".

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
As a coach, I completely disagree with your conclusion that the ballhandler's attention is not supposed to be on help defense. And that is really what we are talking about on the off-ball defender stepping in and taking a charge. I am going through weekly classroom sessions with my team right now, discussing principles of offense and defense. One of the fundamental principles of offense is dribble penetration. And one of the basic principles of dribble penetration is to anticipate and see the help defense.

I reinforce the need for awareness on the part of the dribbler by showing situations where players draw charges, situations where players commit to dribbling into somewhere they can't get out of, etc., as well as showing situations where the shooter recognizes the help and pulls up, or sees the help and dishes (Diana Taurasi's no-look pass from the other night is one example I will use this week).

On the other hand, the defender may be conscious of screens (and may be alerted by the screeners defender as well). But all defenders have two key primary responsibilities for awareness - man and ball. Every coach I have ever talked to about defense stresses these two fundamentals first and foremost. Screener is a third, but man and ball come first.

Therefore, a defender that doesn't see a screen may still be following two fundamental defensive principles. But if a ball handler can't see the help defender, they shouldn't be driving because the most important thing a driver can see is the help defense. They already know where the basket is and they know where their own defendr is. Help is the only thing that matters.

So no, screens and help defense against dribble penetration aren't the same and never will be. Coaches know it and the writers of the rules know it. If you have a different opinion, I believe you are in the minority.

[Hawks Coach]

From a physics standpoint, a player holding the ball and falling to the floor (no contact with any other player) is very similar to a defender falling to the floor (no contact with any other player). Furthermore, if they both hit their heads on the floor with the same velocity, and their heads are similar in construct, the biological effect is also similar.

But in the basketball rules, the person holding the ball has just violated while the defender merely fell. I guess that rule favors the defense as well, since these are scientifically equivalent situations that are treated inequitably by the rules.

If you want my examples of how the offense is advantaged, take two players on converging paths. If neither has the ball and they collide, you probably have incidental contact. If A has the ball, B has fouled A. Trust me, having the ball changes the rules, and usually to your advantage.