Saw it on the highlights. Seemed to be a dubious call, especially in that situation. Comments welcome.

We've been discussing it here:

http://www.officialforum.com/showthr...0&pagenumber=2

Some other threads, too.


Pretty obvious to me - State player running directly behind the dribbler, reaches out, pulls the Vandy player down by his shoulder.

No play on the ball.
No attempt to attain a legal guarding position on defense.
Stopped an obvious scoring attempt in progress.

All together, you have to have an intentional foul.

What did the situation have to do with it?

Mark, totally agree. Grabbed the player's shoulder. Done deal.

There was an ESPN announcer on last night completely ripping Libbey and saying how bad of an official the guy is -- saying how Libbey thinks that all games he works are A vs. B starring Dave Libbey and how he thinks that the assignments have nothing at all to do with ability but rather name recognition of the officials.

I couldn't believe how completely unprofessional this announcer was. I was truly stunned.

Younger guy and I have no idea who he was.

--Rich

I guess you didn't read the comments from the Vandy player that stated he saw him coming from behind and stopped to intentionally draw contact. Definetly not a good call.

Are you a referee, or just another fanboy/troll?

Whatinhell does a player with the ball stopping have to do with whether the foul was called intentional or not? To answer my own question- "F**K ALL!!" Read the damn definitions in the rulebook. Learn the difference between a common foul and an intentional foul. Then tell us intelligently why you think that the play wasn't, and couldn't be an intentional foul, according to the respective rules definitions. The dribbler stopping has got dick all to do with anything!!

Sorry, folks, but I'm just getting a little sick of reading posts that crap on officials from posters that don't have a clue what an intentional foul really is in the first place, by rule.

The Vanderbilt player was pretty darn smart - more power to him for using the rules to his advantage.

Him slowing, however, wouldn't cause the NC State player to grab and push the Vandy player down from behind . . .

Welcome! We need another fanboy idiot on here!

I have eyes, which some people don't seem to because you are the only ones who saw Melvin actually grab him. I have the tape if you would like it. He actually pulled his hands back. You guys are just sticking up for someone in your profession which is cool... Just not accurate here.

We need a graphic that we can throw up as a fanboy alert.

Amazing how many have come out of the woodwork -- how do you think they find sites like this? Do they Google officiating websites so they can come in and rip officials? Maybe they think D-I officials come in to see what fanboys say about them?

Fanboy, you don't have to use your hands to commit an intentional foul.

I didn't say you had to use you hands, but you guys are saying he did use his hands and that is a lie. Larry Rose must post here.

OK, if you're so sure, please tell us EXACTLY what criteria are needed to have an intentional foul according to the rule book, and why this particular play failed to meet those criteria.

I await your knowledgeable and informed answer.

PS- If you somehow fail to answer this very easy question, we would all appreciate it very much if you would then kindly have the courtesy to piss off. And don't come back.

He did not commit an intentional foul because he did not attempt to foul. Think about the situation that NC State was in when this foul was called... Just think about it... He was chasing back to get into the play when the other player stopped and intentionally drew contact with Melvin. State was leading with little time left... Any moron would know he was not attempting to foul. Melvin made no attempt at the ball because he was not attempting to foul. It was incidental contact all the way so by definition it wasn't intentional.

Well, that pretty much says it all right there about your rules knowledge. The player in front can legally stop any time that he feels like it. Any contact resulting on the play is charged to the player behind, by rule. Also, the definitions of an intentional foul include the proviso that there is no attempt at the ball by the defender.

You failed the test, fanboy. Piss off!

Sorry fanboy, but a player does not have to be attempting to foul to commit an intetnional foul.

Intentional by defenition has the route word intent.... Meaning he needs intent to commit and intentional act... I am a police officer and the word intent has strong meanings. If you do not have to have intent to commit and INTENTional foul, the rule if flawed. I never said it wasn't a foul... just not intentional.

Take it up with the rules committee. The "intent" requirement is not there to allow for calls on overly physical fouls. Example, player B1 goes for the ball, but with abandon, and plows over A1 trying to shoot a layup. Intentional foul.
We're not talking about a court of law here. Intent is not the only criterian we have, otherwise we'd be calling intentional fouls the entire last 2 minutes of a 10 point game.

The term "INTENTional" Foul has nothing to do with intent. And we do not go be definitions in the rules of basketball the same way it is in a dictionary. I did not see the play, but what was described, if true fit a good call.

Peace

Well fanboy, bad man attempts to open a window without breaking it, oops, darn, the window broke. Oh well, I'll just go on in. I didn't break and enter. Now, that shows my ignorance of the law. The more you describe your knowledge of the rules, the more you show your ignorance or the rules. Intentional Foul is a NAME of types of fouls. Has little to do with Intent. BTW, as an officer of the law, you have my support.

A police officer, eh? Where do you work? I know next to nothing about the laws and the various statutes, but that doesn't matter. I still want to go watch you at work so I can boo you, second-guess you, tell you what a terrible cop you are, tell you that you really don't know the various laws or how to apply them, tell you that you can't arrest someone because I think that that particular law is wrong anyway, etc.,etc.,etc. Get the idea?

Okay, buddy - read the rulebook and then get back to us. :rolleyes:

NEXT!

Maybe then it should be called a Physical foul... I figured the rules committee would be smart enough to name something by words that descibe it. It's like me saying I am arresting you for Assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.... and then telling someone I know they didn't attempt to kill him, but that is what we will call it.

Jurasic, I get boo'd all the time, you don't have to ride with me. I have a bad day and I don't come home... you have a bad day and you get boo'd. You guys do have a hard job, but some of you are very good, and some of you are not... Just like my profession.

BTW, I really wish you guys were paid more... The ACC officiating is at the bottom of NCAA officiating... I mean the best confrence in football and basketball for next year (quite possible) may have the worst officials. I hope you guys get a raise so you can do it full time and not have to have any other jobs.

Well it is not. So get over it and stop trying to put your spin one what it should be called and accept that intent has nothing to do with the actual definition of the foul.

You decided to be a cop. We decided to be officials. And being an official for most is not a job, it is a hobby at best. Most of us do something else outside of officiating. The point that JR makes is that you do not have many people while your are doing your job, telling you suck and questioning absolutely every decision you make. Of course their are people that are not fond of cops, I am one of them. But if I acted the same way towards a cop as you are towards us, I might be in jail.

So they can make less money than they do now? Not sure I would want that.

Peace

Lah, me! You are completely missing my point. When you're out on the streets, do you arrest people according to written laws and statutes? Or do you make up your own laws, and then use them to arrest people? The point is that YOU are making up YOUR own basketball rules, and YOU are then amazed that trained and experienced NCAA officials aren't following YOUR rules. You don't have even the tiniest clue as to what the purpose and intent of the rule regarding intentional fouls is, but you're telling us that the people who wrote the damn rule are wrong, the experienced officials who applied the rule are also wrong, but you are right. That might not be the dumbest thing that a fan has written on this forum, but it's certainly in the top 10.

Btw, your comment on ACC officials tells me exactly what we're dealing with here too. What credentials do you possess, other than a La-Z-Boy, a 6-pack and a tv set, that will allow you to expertly evaluate, grade and rank all of NCAA basketball officials in the country? That comment made the top 10 too, fanboy.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Apr 1st, 2004 at 07:34 AM]

Sorry fanboy, I have to agree with Jurassic Referee. You have no knowledge of what makes a good/bad referee. Almost all NCAA officials are very good or they wouldn't be there. When you start making judgement calls/no calls ever few seconds, for 40 mins. And you are perfect on every call, every night/day you work, then and only then will I stop calling you fanboy. :D

Actually, I have reasonable knowledge of officiating and have many friends that do officiate. ACC officiating has gone straight down hill in the last decade. I watch games that I have no interest in and i see numerous errors.... many more so than other leagues. Officials are often out of position, the wrong official is making a call, the officiating doesn't remain consistant throughout the game.

I was agreeing with you that you have to enforce the rules, but Melvin's contact was incidental and therefore should not have been called an intentional. But it's over...

Btw, I make split second calls everyday I am at work, so I know how hard they can be... I really do respect what you do, it is not easy at all. You guys have a lot of pressure put on you everyday. Most of you are very good at what you do to, I was just making a comment on this particular call and the state of ACC officiating.


And why don't you like cops... That is such BS.... You must have gotten a speeding ticket you didn't deserve, yeah right. The only people who dislike cops are criminals... 90-95% of the people who say they were wronged by the police are liars, and I feel bad for the other 5-10%. I do everything in my power to make sure that I never do that. I work narcotics, both uniformed, plain clothes, and undercover. I see the worst of the world... If police officers weren't around, I would hate to see what you block would look like. Yet, you aren't fond of cops, what a joke. How about we all just take a day off of work and see how much more you'll like us then.

[Edited by 35thPony on Apr 1st, 2004 at 01:31 PM]

It's got absolutely nothing to do with liking cops. That's completely irrelevant. I could give a damn less whether you were a priest or the president either. It's got everything to do with us NOT liking the fact that misinformed, clueless fanboys like yourself are trying to judge dedicated officials that have put in many, many years trying to perfect their thankless avocation. You don't have a clue what the rules are, what mechanics we use, how we are evaluated,etc.,etc., etc. We're just a convenient excuse for people like you to use when your team loses, or doesn't cover the spread. I'm not qualified to judge how well you do your job as a cop. I'll admit that. You are not qualified to judge how well officials are doing their jobs. You refuse to admit that. I have absolutely no respect for people like you that do nothing but sit on their fat butts and criticize officials. If we're so bad, get off your a$$ and do something about it. Take up officiating, and show us all how it's done. Then come back here when you know what you're talking about!

Then, in your opinion, the officiating in every conference has gone down hill over the last decade since most (if not all) ACC officials work in multiple conferences!

I am not just a fan sitting on my lazy butt... Like I said, I have friends that are in officiating and we talk about things like this all the time. MOST OF YOU ARE GREAT at what you do... But the only thing that is annoying is that when you make a mistake, most officials never admit. To be honest most bad officials are the ones who think they are more important to the game than the players. Their ego's get in the way of their ability to do a good job. I think 85% do a very good job, the 15% that ruin it for you guys should be fired. Keep of the good work and if you guys are as good as you say... PLEASE come to the ACC.

1)I talked to an airline pilot friend of mine too. Now I can fly a 747.

2) Most officials? And how do you know this? Because we don't call YOU when we make a mistake? What is the % of officials that won't admit it, btw? 51%/ 73%? 94%? Would you cite something that will back up this statement?

Keep going, fanboy. Maybe you can be a Judge when you grow up. You're well on the way.

JurASSic, it is obvious you are the official that everyone hates... The rest of the forum has respected my opinion and let me be, even if they disagree. You don't like cops (criminal or stupid traffic violater for sure) and you must be miserable and are officiating so that you may make other miserable as well. GET A LIFE.

I beg to differ. Most of us are just ignoring your ignorance and letting the Jurassic one deal with you. Don't mistake silence for agreement.
Besides that, Jurassic never said he didn't like cops. Jrut did, and he's got his own reasons which many of us may or may not agree with. It's irrelevant here.
Read the posts carefully before you start attacking the officials in here. For that matter, read the rules carefully before you start attacking referees out there.

ponyboy,
How do you know ACC officials are out of position? I have a hard time believing a major D-1 conference would continue to hire lazy refs who don't get into position, especially on a regular basis. I'd be willing to make a wager (while I'm in Vegas for about 12 more hours) that your ref friends (if they exist) aren't reffing D-1 ball and don't have the credentials necessary to critique D-1 officials.
You just made my point for me for another troll who came strolling through her about a month ago. Every D-1 fan across the country thinks the officiating in his conference is the worst. My friends think it's the worst in the Big Ten. Others in Iowa think the Big 12 is the worst. We had an Arizona troll in here who thought it is the worst in the Pac-10, and now you think it's worst in the ACC.
King Solomon was right, "There is nothing new under the sun."

No, I certainly don't respect you personally or your opinion. Your opinion solely consists of mindlessly crapping on my fellow officials, without giving ANY reason other than "they're terrible". You haven't posted one damn thing that could be logically discussed by us. Officials here have tried to explain a few things to you, but you absolutely refuse to listen. The only reason that you showed up here in the first place was with the sole intention of just indiscriminately dumping on officials. Works both ways, fanboy! Do the exact same thing to you that you do to us, and all you can do is whine "you're not fair". Go away. There's plenty of fan boards out there, and all kinds of fanboys that will agree with your opinion.

Sorry, Goober. When it's a choice between one of my fellow officials or you, you lose.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snaqwells

Quote:

Besides that, Jurassic never said he didn't like cops. Jrut did, and he's got his own reasons which many of us may or may not agree with. It's irrelevant here.

I think you need to read the post as well. I said that I do not repect all cops, because when they abuse their power it affects people's livelyhoods, not just a chance at winning a game. But you do not seem me running around and telling them how to do their job, when I have never been a cop in my life. It would be like a cop telling me how to get sales in my profession. If you have not done it before, you are not the best person to give advice on the topic.

Peace

I have never seen an officer abuse his power in person in 7 years of law enforcement. It does happen every once in a while, but I would say 99.5% of the claims are complete BS.

[Edited by 35thPony on Apr 3rd, 2004 at 12:20 AM]

Well how do you think we feel when you come here with your BS about how the officials screwed up a game?

About the police situation, I can tell you that the city I live around had many cases thrown out and death penalty sentences revoked, largely because of police coruption. This of course is not subject to every police force in the county, but it happens. ;)

Peace

Most of the cops I know (and I know quite a few) would be shaking their head at your poor attitude. I don't care what you do for a living...because you've quite obviously got no LIFE.

What part of "piss off" don't you understand?

Whoops, sorry....what part of "piss off" don't you understand, OFFICER?

What poor attitude... You guys just don't understand the real world... Hasta Lavista ya bunch of sorry losers. I wish I could do my job as poorly as you and still keep my job.

cry baby
 

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!!!!!!
JR, where's that gif of that baby?

Again, officiating for about 98% of us is not a job. It is something we do on the side. But I know that Cops like yourself always try to tell the public how hard your job is and why you had to hit that guy over the head with your stick and you idiots almost always keep your jobs, even when found to be crooked. Please, save the sob story for your union.

Peace

There are enough bad cops for us to take note. There are enough cops that abuse/relish/love their power to the extreme for us to take note. One day a couple of months ago a cop was waving/stopping traffic in front of a church. He waved for me to go and I went. He got excited and waved for me to stop where he was. He says "you have to slow down" and I say "I have to go!" What I meant was I have a stick so I had to take off. I wasn't going too fast, he just wanted to flex. He didn't have a valid point so he just waved me on. Was I supposed to be scared because he was a cop? I think he thought so, I though NOT.
You can say all you want about a percentage of the refs or whatever. You, along with most fans, don't know all of the rules that we have to enforce so you whine and show ignorance. I least when it comes to cops we know the rules!

J Rut, can you send me an email? I have something to ask/tell you about.

You have no idea about the rules I have to enforce. That cop didn't do anything wrong, my guess is you reved your engine to get going and he said "you need to slow down". You even said it yourself. Some argue that a high percentage of officials like to flex their authority but does that make them right? I doubt it. I also believe you don't know even 10% of the rules I enforce. You know don't speed, steal, beat, rob, or do drugs... It is ALOT more then that. You talk crap about us and we protect you, your family, and your property. The sad thing is people like you will never respect my job. You hate us and yet if you are being attacked, shot at, robbed, stole from, etc... You will still want me to show up and help you out and I will be there with no ill will what so ever. My job is to help even the ignorant ones that don't like me because I wear a badge.... and you know what it doesn't really matter to me because I treat everyone the same and will help anyone who needs it.

JR Can you give me an example of when a police officer beat someone with a stick and was convicted of a crime and kept his job. BTW, in my state we don't have police unions either... wish we did. The public can make all the false accusations they wish and there is nothing we can do. Police officer's get fired so often when they have done nothing wrong. I have been sued twice and both cases took 2-3 years to resolve and do you know what... Both were dismissed because they were bs. Police corruption is there, just like in any job. I could tell you that a large number of referees take bribes. I am smart enough to know that is not the case, but I am smart enough to know it happens. I will never think less of you because someone dishonored you profession and bet on a game or took a bribe so please afford me the same respect. I know there are some ignorant people that constantly complain in every game that refs suck and they are paid off. I am not one of those. We are all humans and we will all make mistakes. I apologize I took offense to the immediate slamming of me but when you attacked my profession, I bit back... But, you probably took my orginal post and thought I was trying to attack one of you. I apologize for that.

My parnter and friend and I had a bad day at work on July 11, 1997 and I would say our day was worse than one you can ever have. The next time you think a cop flexed his muscle because he told you to slow down think of my partner and his family.

http://www.odmp.org/officer.php?oid=14937

here is a link... That is all I have left of my friend and partner is that link and a headstone.

[Edited by 35thPony on Apr 6th, 2004 at 04:11 PM]

Like no one else here has ever lost somebody close for no good reason, I suppose?

I can't imagine what it must have been like to lose your partner like that, or to know that you might die on the job someday.

But neither of those things justifies the self-important, superior, arrogant, and ignorant attitude you have.

Leadership is ACTION, not a POSITION. If you want respect, you must act in a way that justifies respect. I'd hate to think the majority of police officers are as completely sour as you seem to be.

I am going to go ahead and lock this thread as it seems to have degenerated from the original topic and discussion on whether or not the play in question was intentional or not, into a topic totally unrelated to basketball.

Let's get back to the basketball stuff and the reason people visit this forum. :)

Thanks,

Brendan