Okay, what's going on here? I haven't see but a couple of games today, AF vs. UNC and Dayton/DePaul, but the officials are both games are NOT using Precision Time. In the Dayton/DePaul game, DePaul attempted to call TO at the end of the game, Whistle blew but clock didn't stop and they didn't pout the time back up, using the lag time rule.

Also, the officials in the Carolina game were raising there hands to stop the clock on violations and OOB situations. it was actually quite refreshing.

Have these two things been consistent in all of the games?

I've noticed the same thing.

I haven't seen Precision Timing yet in the tournament.

NCAA tourney doesn't use precision time, as not every stadium in which games are played has the equipment. (Although I believe that should also be a requirement to host.)

As to the time - are you sure they used lag time? I agree that it looked wierd, but I'm not sure exactly what they did. The 0.4 in OT1 was nailed.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what the cost for the precision timing equipment is??

At the end of regulation, the whistel defintely sounded at least .5 before the horn. But sine time expired, they didn't put time back on it. For some reason, they handled differently in the OT.

PT costs vary, anywhere from $2500 to $16K-$18K. You can get it in very simple form, like that used for HS or you can get a very advanced version like the NBA uses. A former official in our group works with Mike Constable and travels to all the major events to make sure things run smoothly with it. He told me that the NBA version records which official blows his whistle, every time he blows it and records the time. The HS version is not nearly so sophisticated.

I find it difficult to believe that the arenas not owning a PT system has anything to do with the NCAA not using it in the tournament. The game today were played in Denver, where the Nuggets play, in Raleigh, where NC State plays, in Seattle where the Sonics play and in Buffalo. Not having PT isn't an issue.

I don't know why it's not being used but it has to go deeper than that. I'll find out tomorrow.

My friend, a fellow official, and I were watching the game together and I had him blurt out when the TO was requested. I had my eyes fixed on the clock. The clock was changing from 0.8 to 0.7 when he said, "now".

When it's requested is not the issue. It's when it was granted, when the official blows his whistle.

A very good point!

If we went based on the request - I'd say put 1.4 on the clock (one of the players up at the top of the key actually requested the timeout before the player on the baseline.)

I couldn't hear the whistle on the replay (it was silent), but I saw the lead's hand go up with 0.3 seconds left on the clock. Being able to hear the whistle on the replay, 0.4 seems reasonable.

Because of regional coverage, CBS went away on my cable - does anyone know if they even went to the replay monitor?

I dunno - I know the NIT uses it if available - this was my best guess for NCAA.

Well, here's what I found out. We were both correct in our thinking. There are a few sites that don't have it available. Since all sites don't have it, the NCAA has chosen not to use it at all. Evidently, the NCAA didn't want to purchase the equipment for those sites. So even though it's available in some places, in Raleigh for instance, it wasn't used. I felt like there was a little more to it.

In a couple of years, it will be required for all D1 schools.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Mar 19th, 2004 at 09:46 AM]

Maybe we should always have 4 officials on the game...3 on the court and 1 sitting in front of the clock with his back to the floor to make sure no team gets rooked for so much as .1 second!! That would be just horrible if someone didn't get their precious .1 more second added back to the clock!

We're human...we're fallible...when will that be understood? High level officials not only can go to monitors but also use the Precision Time method. No matter what it used, human officials will never achieve perfection! I wish administrators would concede this.

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Mar 19th, 2004 at 10:09 AM]

Has this been officially decided by the committee yet? Or are they still strongly recommending and it looks like they'll change the rule in the future?

Of course we'll never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. When it comes down to something a computer chip can do better than a human timer, go with the computer chip. We owe it to the players, coaches, schools, and fans to be as exact as possible with the clock - especially at the end of games and in the tourney, where every game seems to come down to a last-second shot.

Agree...to a certain point...
 

If we are worried about .1 second at the end of the game...what about all .1 seconds that are lost during the rest of the 39+ minutes????

Re: Agree...to a certain point...
 

While I try not to worry :p, I am concerned with 0.1 second at any time in the game - that's why we use PT for the entire game, not just the last 60 seconds.

The phrase you hear as you move up is "correct each timing mistake no matter how small." Precision Time does this. Where your timing mistakes are going to get the most attention, though, is at the very end of a tie or 1-point ballgame.

I actually only posted this message as a matter of interest. I didn't lay claim to what the clock should have been reset to.

It was already established that the TO was granted at 0.4s - and correctly so. I was just pointing out that it was requested at 0.8s.

As for the request near the 3-point line, it is mute because no official granted it before the endline request was granted.

Re: Agree...to a certain point...
 

The team's have a chance to "recover" from any "bad call" during the game, but don't have a chance at the end of the game.

That's the difference.

Didn't something similar happen toward the end of the ACC regular season? Foul called at the buzzer, the officials administer the FT's.

Later, the league office comes out and says the whistle was 1/30th of a second after the horn. Anyone know why they said this instead of saying when the foul was in relation to the end of play?

Nope, not to my knowledge.

I've also seen many examples of the exact opposite, too! I guess one you've "made it" you can truly do anything you want or feel like doing in terms of mechanics!!!!

I'm not sure how many times I've seen good mechanics...and I'm not sure how many times I've seen fouls called WITHOUT fists...OOB calls WITHOUT stopping the clock, etc., etc. Maybe someday I'll make it...and the first time I blow my whistle to stop the clock...I'll RAISE MY LEG!!! Hey, what does it matter as long as I get the call right!!

Just remember - while it may look nice, it's not required in men's NCAA mechanics.

Many HS officials have stopped making these signals as well. I saw games in the state tournament this year where officials were using the NCAA point.

It's an antiquated mechanic. The clock stops EVERY TIME a whistle blows. It's an unncessary mechanic that will soon go the way of the bird dog.

seeing and hearing
 

As long as the timer can hear your whistle, the point is fine. If you are in a HS gym that is very loud, it is a darn good idea to raise your hand so that the timer can SEE when you want the clock stopped. (I think people tend to point a bit after blowing the whistle.)
I had a game this year in which we had to decide whether or not the last shot, to tie game, counted and the crowd screamed so loudly that no one heard the horn. Fortunately, I had a clear view of the shooter the ball and the clock at 0.0 before the release. In the absence of hearing a horn that was the best we could do.

Re: seeing and hearing
 

So why can college officials (without precision time) manage without the raised hand?

I really don't think most of the timers look for the hand anyway.

Re: Re: seeing and hearing
 

Only time I'll look for the hand is if I know the ball is going OOB and I can't hear the whistle.

Re: Re: Re: seeing and hearing
 

But is the upstretched hand any less visible to you than one pointing forward or backward.

This is a bit like back when the trail had to signal "2 points" on every made basket. How many timer/scorers really needed that?

Re: Re: Re: Re: seeing and hearing
 

In the corners, yes.

Anywhere else on the court, no.

Rich,
I already wrote why I think there is a difference:
My experience is that they tend to put their hand straight up as they sound the whistle. That makes a small difference to a timer going off the visual signal of the official.

Why then has it not been used in college games for years? Why is it when I go to college camps I hear clinicians correct people for using the mechanic?

Why do we need to be different in something so basic? Why should I worry about how to call a ball out of bounds Monday vs. Tuesday?

Rich,
I am probably not the most qualified person to answer these questions. (Since I am not currently a college official.) However, like everyone else I have an opinion. I believe that it started with people just forgetting to put their hand up at the college level and then they started to justify it by saying that it looked better on TV to just point or something like that. Maybe it started a trend or a follow the leader thing. "If that's what the top guys do, that's what I should do too."
As you know so much of officiating today at the NCAA level concerned with the appearance on TV. Looking good has practically overtaken calling a good game. Image, ego, style, etc. are all part of the reason that many mechanics are being dropped or changed at the NCAA level.
Look at how many guys use closed fists on their hips for a block call. They say it looks stronger.
Bottom line, I think it is all purely cosmetic BS. JMHO

I think the fists look stronger too. It's all part of the package.

The problem I have with the hand up is actually a simple one -- too many officials don't know which hand to raise to give the out of bounds signal (there is a proper hand that makes the signal look good). Other officials will raise their hands and call out the color and not point (which is really frustrating for a partner).

I give it 3 years and our mechanics will be almost identical to college mechanics. The birddog was put in its proper place last year and we only need two more things -- going tableside in 3 and getting rid of the "stop clock" signal on an out of bounds.

Maybe it's just me, but I've been seeing a whole lot of bird-dogging in the tournament. I don't do it anymore, but these "big dogs" sure seem to!

The older guys are -- yes. I wonder how many of them do it during the regular season too, yet there are enough younger officials mixed in to make it less noticeable.

I don't have a problem with stopping the clock first -- but just like the birddog it could be made optional. I've seen some NCAA officials stopping the clock and most not stopping the clock -- the world hasn't ended because its being done a little differently once in a while.

--Rich

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Mar 25th, 2004 at 10:54 AM]